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Comment by whatyoumean | Hacker News Reader

Black engineer here. Fresh out of college, I worked as a developer for one year and couldn't take it. Interesting work, competent teammates, but that constant feeling of unbelongingness and "sticking out like a sore thumb" -- I couldn't take it. So I went back to (grad) school. I kept telling friends and family going back to school was a "good career move". I honestly just wanted to restore my sanity.

Thank you so much for writing this, it reflects my experiences perfectly. I can only imagine how additionally difficult it must be for women.

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I wonder how much of the "sticking out" is self-imposed. At times, I have felt the same way as you and the author have expressed. At others, I think I am making it up. It's stressful to feel like every move is scrutinized because of something I have no control over.

I am tired of the "sticking out" feeling, real or imaginary. So, I started a Meetup group for black engineers. Sometimes, it's really nice to just relax and feel comfortable. No worries about someone attributing my behavior to being black, or judging all black people by something that I've said or done.

Right now, I am hoping to rally folks to come to Philadelphia in 2 weeks for a black hackathon. It's a great way to network and teach. Check out http://www.mbkhack.com/ for more info. If you're in NYC and interested, we will have a pre-meeting before we go. The link is in my profile.

White engineer (and startup founder) here. Could you explain what it feels like/what you think causes it in a little bit more detail? I care very deeply about diversity and making everyone feel included in our company, but it's hard to do without having a deep understanding of why people who don't feel included feel that way.

What exactly do people do? Do you feel they make assumptions about what you're like? Or is it that you feel you can't be yourself because if you act the way you feel is natural and still get your work done, people mistakingly perceive you as unprofessional?

For people who are in a position to change work environments and make them more inclusive, what can we do? What changes do you think we could make to accept people from different backgrounds? (I mean actually accept, not just have a friendly slogan that makes everyone self-satisfied, but doesn't actually accomplish anything)

EDIT: the OP mentions obviously sexist/racist comments that border on sexual harassment. Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious?

Coffee, I'd be happy to discuss this in detail with you, but I'd prefer not to post on HN as I'd prefer not to be downvoted into oblivion. I will send you a direct email.

It can be something as simple as being in a team of gamers, and not being a gamer yourself. You are naturally going to stick out, and not have as good a time as if you are in a team of people who like cycling, or have families like you do.

Age can be a difference, not obvious as being treated differently, but just having different humuour levels, or doing different things on the weekend can make it harder to bond.

I can see not being a gamer or not liking beer making anyone a social misfit, regardless of race. I'm a white non-gamer and I've uncomfortably sat through so many gaming conversations. They just go on and on and on.

It's true. And for as much flak as "cultural fit" takes in the popular press, everyone's going to be happier if people get along. Look hard at this stuff when you're thinking about joining a company, you'll spend a lot of time there.

Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious?

Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do. I know it takes some doing to maintain an atmosphere of mutual trust, to the point where people can be direct and honest, and communication even about very complicated issues works the best. I would maintain that a policy of instant firing for pattern-matching "bad behavior" is the very opposite of what you want. (Except in very extreme circumstances.) Instead, when it comes up, how about you gauge how open the different parties are to new information? How about measuring how curious, flexible, and effective they are figuring out where things went wrong and understanding how to avoid the problem in the future?

I propose that an atmosphere of openness and mutual trust that can even encompass issues around race and gender would make for a group that's head and shoulders more effective than most.

"Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do." - Yes.

> Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do.

There is no plausible context in which saying "did you get that bruise from your boyfriend beating you?" to your colleague is appropriate. If someone does that, you really have no choice but to take a stand.

That could be a matter of context, though. Obviously this was not the situation for the author of the article, but that isn't automatically an inappropriate statement. Let's say the person who said it actually has a friendship with the recipient, and knows that she is in an abusive relationship. The manager/boss/founder may not know any of this, and the hair-trigger "you're fired" response is entirely unwarranted and fairly horrible.

Recently I was having a conversation with a coworker (who is also a friend) where I said something to him that would be pretty bad if we weren't also friends. (We often have a faux-confrontational relationship and hurl fake insults at each other.) Someone who wasn't aware of our friendship overheard, and mentioned it to our boss, who then calmly asked me for an explanation. In the end, our boss agreed that the 3rd party overreacted, but suggested (and I agreed) that I might want to tone it down in situations where others who don't understand could misinterpret my words. He didn't come at me angrily or with an accusation of impropriety, but instead asked a reasonable question in an attempt to understand the context of the situation. Immediately taking the matter to HR or threatening me with being fired would have been counterproductive.

There is no plausible context in which saying "did you get that bruise from your boyfriend beating you?" to your colleague is appropriate.

Given the context from the op, this was clearly not appropriate. However, it would be false to say there is no conceivable context in a workplace where that combination of words could be. I was dating a martial artist at one point. We met in class. It would've been entirely appropriate for a friend who knew what I was up to lately to ask if a bruise was from my girlfriend beating me.

Additionally, there are other ways to ask about a bruise, even if there's reason to believe the situation is darker.

If someone does that, you really have no choice but to take a stand.

Highly dependent on context. Again, given the context from the op, this was clearly not appropriate. Still, I should hope that people talk openly and try to understand what everything is about when situations like this come up. This is what one would expect to happen in a group that is also an actual community.

There are probably a lot of situations when this kind of comment can be funny. It can be related to a movie, to an IRL event, to something someone said earlier, the list goes on and on.

I'm a big fan of "offensive humor", I love the show "It's always unny in philadelphia", but as always, the joke is a only a joke if the "target" find it funny.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that the woman in the article wasn't victim of racism/harassment, if what she wrote is true she certainly was and I'm happy to know that she is doing better now.

I don't understand why such a comment is being seen as racist, or with racist undertones? I don't live in America, so I don't know what passes off as "racism" over there. But here in Africa, that sounds like a perfectly valid thing to ask a colleague if they show up for work with a bruise on their face, and you're concerned. Black, white, or any other race for that matter.

explaining American Racism is very, very difficult, hilarious, and sad.

The implied stereotyped story is that all black men are angry and beat their wives/girlfriends. If the two parties knew each other and were good friends, then this could have fit into the, "so horrible, it can't be true so it's funny," style of humor. However, attempting that is taking a big risk and having it fail can be downright offensive.

There is no plausible context in which saying "did you get that bruise from your boyfriend beating you?" to your colleague is appropriate.

My wife was once asked by her manager about a bruise on her arm [1], inquiring whether I had something to do with it.

Domestic violence is just as much a hot button today as diversity. Family doctors are expected to spot signs and counsel, for example. While an awkward situation, and one that I wish wasn't pushed on us, I don't find it surprising to hear that this occurred - and it could well be independent of any racial connection.

[1] Believe it or not, the bruise was from table tennis. At competitive levels, a ping-pong ball actually leaves a bruise, and my wife used to be ranked 30th best woman table tennis player in the country.

I think it's great that you put this question out here. The funny thing (in my experience) is that white people DO understand exactly how it feels, they just aren't always honest enough with themselves to realize it.

The Experiment: Go to whatever is considered to be the worst neighborhood in your town. At night. Alone. Do something completely normal. For example, buy something from a gas station, walk into a nightclub, etc. How do you feel? Out of place? Scared? Not sure how to act?

Well, that's the feeling the OP is describing. The immediate defensive response is usually to think "that's different...those neighborhoods are DANGEROUS. I could be killed." Granted, black people can certainly be in danger just for being in white neighborhoods (think unprovoked police shootings), but even if your biggest fear is losing your job or something of that nature, it isn't all that different.

I think, ultimately, the best way to promote an inclusive workplace is to hire a diverse team. Really put effort into finding candidates from diverse backgrounds. That means expanding your circle even when you aren't actively recruiting. (also, try not to ever say "binders full of women")

I think, ultimately, the best way to promote an inclusive workplace is to hire a diverse team.

I'd say that's the start. You're creating favorable conditions. The important step is to have open and honest communications, even around issues as sensitive as race.

(also, try not to ever say "binders full of women")

I don't think "try not to say" political correctness is intellectually compelling. In fact, I think it's counter-productive to open and honest communications. The implementation of hair-trigger job loss and social stigma is only going to create fear and stifle communications.

I'm not trying to defend toxic speech here. Instead, I'm trying to be clear about comprehension and motivation. Instead of a social context that mindlessly implements pattern-matching hair-trigger sanctions, I'd rather have a support group that understands me and where I'm coming from, so they understand how I would feel about this or that social situation. I'd rather be surrounded by coworkers that know me well enough, they probably won't say something that offends me, or if they happen to do that, I know well enough to talk to them constructively about that.

A bit off-topic, but I hate that there's such a stigma in the American workplace around getting fired. Statistically, not every hire works out, not every job is great, some people and companies are better off without each other.

Rather than engage in this collective delusion that everything is always OK, I wish firing was a more commonplace thing. I also think how it's framed matters a lot: "this isn't working out for either of us" vs. "you aren't welcome here, don't come back".

Additionally, Slava (coffeemug) is right, personnel decisions are the loudest, most unambiguous signals about what's valued in a work culture. Posters on the walls are bullshit - look at who's advancing, who's getting the raises, titles, and what kind of person is getting hired, to know where an organization's priorities really lie.

> I also think how it's framed matters a lot: "this isn't working out for either of us" vs. "you aren't welcome here, don't come back".

Doesn't really matter how it's framed, when the reality is clear in almost all interactions: the employee is getting the short end of the stick. It's very simple, really: the ratio of employee's salary to his/her total income is very likely to dwarf the ratio of the cost of the employee to the companies total costs. Hence, keeping an employee is very low-risk for the company, while getting fired is very high-risk for an individual. Even if you say "it's not working for us", what you really mean is "I'll slightly improve my profit margins by turning your life on it's head!".

Maybe. What you're saying is a tautological conclusion of the fact that large companies tend to have a lot of employees. None of your employees cost much individually, but if you don't fire anyone, the aggregate cost is a lot.

Besides, if you thought that the point of a company was to provide you with a job and sustenance, you were delusional to begin with. The fact that they're paying you is a side effect of the fact that you're doing things for them that they need. I'm not saying it should be that way, I'm just saying that no one's really hiding that fact.

How this ties in to what the parent is saying: not everyone is fired because they inherently suck. It's possible to not suck and still not be useful to the company. So the stigma here is a bit irrational. I know a company who hired a C-level executive and then very soon realized that they didn't need that person yet, and went through many pains to keep that person onboard on the paperwork. They made it look like they left after a year on their own accord, all in order to not ruin the person's career.

I believe that the stigma is caused by the very real and very harsh effect of firing on the individual wellbeing and financial safety, given the lack of social 'safety net' in USA and the general lack of savings for not-the-1% of people.

In countries where getting fired doesn't cause immediate financial distress and doesn't remove you from, say, access to medical services for your kids, people don't have such a stigma and actually are willing to simply move on if it isn't working out of if their relationship with teammates matches the bad parts of the original post.

I think you're right.

A bit of personal perspective: I'm a 30 year old, I earn well into six figures/yr, but I still live relatively far below my means. Concretely, this has required making some very tangible lifestyle choices that haven't always been pleasant, including living with roommates in a somewhat bad neighborhood, not buying high-end clothes, etc.

The reason I do this, and it's something which somewhat annoys my long-term girlfriend, is that I absolutely refuse to live paycheck-to-paycheck. I've done that for a while after a failed startup, and it's terrible. It takes a huge psychological toll and the idea that you have to stay at a crappy job, and be afraid every day of being fired, is something I'm working very, very hard to avoid.

> I don't think "try not to say" political correctness is intellectually compelling.

Except, that's not what the parent was doing. It was a partisan dig, thinly disguised: even worse.

It actually was neither. What I meant was that it is painfully obvious when someone does NOT have a diverse team.

I'm not sure how hiring a diverse team (only) will help. It seems like it will just create two different groups within the same company/workgroup that stick together and don't talk to one another. Sure, the minorities will feel more comfortable, but I think communication and acceptance between all parties will help overcome the "out of place" feeling in a much more enlightened way--a much more enlightened way instead of hiring people for your odd men/women out to hang out with instead of those _other_ people.

Now, if hiring a diverse team forces the old team to start realizing their biases and become more accepting, that a great way to start to overcome those barriers, but I think the understanding is far more important than just having a higher percentage of people of other races.

I discuss my opinion on this in my comment below.

Agreed there's more to it than just hiring the diverse team, but that's a chunk of it.

People work together, and project assignments aren't made to put friends together, but to group the skillsets needed and to help people do the work that interests them.

Of course there's some time spent hanging out in the break room or possibly after-hours, but most socializing (in my experience) happens around work, in groupings that are work-project based.

The small talk is quite different (and honestly, much more interesting!) when you have a more diverse group, automatically.

"The Experiment" is comparing two different things. One's an issue of personal safety combined with elements of not fitting in, the other's an issue of not fitting in, combined with elements of career stressors.

You say it isn't all that different, but having experienced too much of both, it is.

Both are real, and sometimes both occur at once, but to say a white guy in a predominantly non-white and high-crime neighborhood would gain empathy for a non-white coder in a predominantly white tech company, would be as absurd as claiming the reciprocal.

A better comparison might be moving to a different country and getting a job there when you don't completely understand the culture and possibly have a language barrier (which I've gone through). You don't feel unsafe, but you don't quite fit in, you feel homesick, you don't mesh well with your coworkers, and you feel a constant background radiation of insecurity because you aren't used to the legal system, the social support system, etc. Your coworkers might make slight jokes about you. They mean well, but it sure as heck doesn't help your situation.

That feeling really (really) sucks. It must suck ten times as much when it's happening in your own country. I really feel for people who are forced to experience this.

The issue of personal safety is almost always overblown. The difference between the best part of town (i.e. where you feel comfortable) and the worst part of town (where you are uncomfortable), anywhere I've ever been, has been at most a relatively small degree. The perception of the issue is almost always caused by the "not fitting in" part.

Further, career stresses are frequently underplayed in the tech environment. Certainly, I would feel very little worry about saying, "Adios, and I'll leave my badge on my desk on my way out." On the other hand, if you are not part of the tech culture and everyone you know is either unemployed or working, say, outside the tech field, the potential of being punished simply for standing out is a bigger worry than I suspect you really think.

In other words, it isn't the same thing, but it's not as absurd as you might believe.

Personal safety is an extension of not fitting it - it's hard to read the cues about who or what might be a threat to you as opposed to a mere annoyance. Of course one is unlikely* to face a physical threat in the workplace equivalent to heading to a dive bar surrounded by broken bottles, but your career risk is just an abstraction of the corporal risk and can be just as stressful.

* as a man anyway.

I've also experienced a great deal of both and I disagree with your read. It's easy to think up non-racial examples as well; someone who's gay in a frat-themed work environment, or a middle-class guy ending up at a bar populated by Hell's Angels or suchlike. The differences with race and gender, obviously, are that it's almost impossible to obscure those facts about yourself so you can't even fake that you fit in.

Come now, I've spent plenty of time as the only white person in sight, and it never felt anywhere near as uncomfortable as walking by druggies, needles out, late at night. Or going through the empty NYC subways at 4AM. Or the guy who pulled a knife on me.

Social anxiety is real, but do you really find the fear of imminent injury/death no more terrifying than social harm?

Fear of bodily harm is certainly far more acute, but it's also concentrated in time, even though it may be encountered regularly or frequently. While social anxiety is more of a chronic issue, I think it can be just as stressful in the aggregate - I did choose the word 'stressful' deliberately above.

The point is that there is this ridiculous misconception that everyone in "bad" neighborhoods is constantly being shot at. I just said go to one of those neighborhoods and do something like shop at a gas station or nightclub. I didn't say a thing about knives, druggies, or anything of the sort.

But those neighborhoods aren't really that dangerous. For example, many people go on vacation to places that are more dangerous than the worse neighborhoods in their town (Jamaica and Mexico come to mind). Even the "safe" places in those countries are more dangerous than the "dangerous" places in any average US town.

Increasing racial diversity as a solution is a recommendation without empirical grounding. I am a white male and I work part time in ed tech. Our department is quite mixed - both my supervisor and the head of our department are black woman. However, there is little collegiality here.

And this matches the literature - the more ethnic/racial diversity in a community, the less civic engagement and trust (1). I'm not sure what the answer is, but the research suggests diversity is not a universal panacea. Like anything else, there are benefits and liabilities involved - and there are other considerations to take into account.

For example, I wonder if her co-workers had been more like her in other ways, such as matching her taste in video games, dress, attitude and so on - if her experience would have been different. In my department I suspect it's mostly these other things (work and personality styles especially) that are the reason for the lack of cohesion.

The best groups I've been a part of are those that mixed the right amount of same and different. We need to feel some commonality with others to form bonds, but we also need enough differences to challenge and stimulate us. Effective hiring practices require attention to both, else company and employee will suffer.

(1) http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/t...

*Edited to expand on the point/add clarity.

The research I've seen claims that the benefit of diversity is higher performance, not increased collegiality. They may even be inversely correlated. From a Kellogg School of Management (Northwestern) piece (1):

"The mere presence of diversity in a group creates awkwardness, and the need to diffuse this tension leads to better group problem solving... while homogenous groups feel more confident in their performance and group interactions, it is the diverse groups that are more successful in completing their tasks."

(1) http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/better_decis...

Apples and oranges. The issue Erica is concerned about is her social discomfort at work, not her team's performance. Also, the study you cite was measuring gender and length of group membership diversity, not racial/ethnic diversity.

The last team I worked on had 2 Englishmen, 5 Indians, 2 Pakistanis, a Frenchman, a Portuguese, a Greek, an Australian, and a Kazakh. It was chaos. No one understood each other, and so heated arguments were the norm. This was not higher performance.

Presumably any benefits gained from diversity can very easily be lost in the mix of language and true cultural barriers. In the spirit of the article it'd be more relevant if it were a mix of genders, races, and socioeconomic standing at birth than a mix of different nationalities, languages, and workplace customs.

"if it were a mix of genders, races, and socioeconomic standing at birth" Clearly the latter two were the case. The gender mix was about 30% female.

What I meant was the language barrier almost certainly added more complication than the diversity.

I generally agree with you, but ... http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

There is also the "problem" of mixing professional and personal relationships. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, but some individuals absolutely do. not. want. For teams where the workplace is the social hub for most but not all, those stuck at the social periphery are most likely going to suffer professionally. And this doesn't even get into class differences (as in, those protected classes, not socioeconomic) and feelings of not belonging.

This is quite late, but I just want to clarify: I am not "against" diversity. I am merely contesting the idea that the answer to all issues around having employees feeling uncomfortable or discriminated against at work is not as simple as: "just add diversity". I have no idea what the answer is, but the research and my experience suggest it is a lot more complicated than that.

Another option, if you're a straight cis person, is to go to a gay bar/club. You'll feel different.

I'm a white male mathematician, and have spent a good deal of time working in east Africa over the last few years. Going to Kenya was my first experience with being a visible minority, and working in the Universities, I'm guessing, might approximate what the article is getting at. There was clearly an established culture within the departments, amongst the people I was working with, that I simply couldn't be a part of. At the same time, I was subject to quite a bit of street harassment, though not workplace harassment, which made it very difficult to make connections with people, because the defenses you deploy against possible harassment become an impediment to making strong connections with people. Meanwhile, things like being vegetarian create a kind of gulf with working colleagues.

I think one of the most important things you can do is to actively nurture leadership amongst minority members of your team. By supporting their ideas (both for engineering and social activities) you'll help empower them and make them into insiders. People struggling to fit in will speak more softly, and be more fearful of putting ideas forward; listen closely, amplify good ideas, and make sure that the right people get the credit for them.

I'm a female software engineer. I'm pretty successful, but I have often felt that I don't fit in and I've had to learn to deal with that.

I feel isolated and lonely when there is a group that has a common narrative and set of assumptions that I don't fit. These come out in general statements, assumptions, and/or jokes. Then I have to decide whether to hide my own preferences (lying by omission), get into an argument, or change my preferences. All three options are exhausting and take energy away from actually doing work.

Examples:

* Generalizations about "real haxx0rs": "programmers have side projects", "programmers use [operating system of choice]", "programmers heavily customize their editor", "programmers can't get a girlfriend/are introverted/socially maladapted", "programmers don't care about their clothes", "programmers don't wear a tie", etc.

* Disproportionately caring about one set of users/customers which resembles the team. Example: spending a lot of time talking about/fixing the experience of male users when the vast majority of users are female (and the product is not mature yet); making fun of users and their silly ways when the majority of users are female and/or non-technical and/or young and/or old and/or not from cosmopolitan areas, etc.

* Having to have a conversational style that's significantly more aggressive than what is natural for me in order not to get left out of conversations. I have to be comfortable cutting people off in meetings and jumping on the ends of sentences. I've learned to do it but it's pretty exhausting, and takes energy away from actually doing work. Also, having to jump verbal cues gives me a feeling of insecurity about people not caring what I have to say unless I shove it down their throat, even when that is obviously not the case (because my input is well-received).

As a manager/CEO, here are a few things you can do to help:

* Allow hires to be vetoed on the basis of not having an inclusive worldview, regardless of their professional ability. You can ask "tell me of a time when" type questions to suss that out. Eg, "tell me of a time when you had to convey a complicated technical point across to a non-technical customer (or team)", and watch for denigrating statements. I've given product manager candidates hypothetical products to design for a very particular audience, and anyone who made excessive fun of the intended audience was a no hire.

* Enforce civil conversational standards around the workplace, ie no off-color jokes, talking down to customers, empty generalizations, etc. I don't mean sending around HR videos on what not to say, I mean simple statements like "That's not funny, and offensive" (said flatly), "This customer pays us $X" or "That's not how we're going to improve our conversion rate", etc.

* Encourage open and written discussion of issues, eg via bugs, written code buddies/reviews, etc. Have anyone be able to veto a commit (with good reason), or reopen a bug. Having the bulk of these discussions in writing can help shy/non-confrontational people have their say. Having a focus on getting things done, and getting them done right, vs how exactly they get done can also help people feel more at ease.

* Pay close attention in group discussions to see if anyone is chronically unable to finish their thought without being shut down or talked over by someone else. If their thoughts have merit, be their advocate and calmly say something like "I'd like to hear X finish their thought". Say it as often as necessary. Then encourage other people to say it for you, when necessary.

Aside from all of this, as an early startup employee I've been mistaken for the admin, and as a consultant I've been in situations where people assumed at first sight that I was dumb, not technical at all, had not programmed for long, and more generally was less competent than others. If these prejudices survived one conversation they were generally a sign that the company was pretty fucked up and that much more was wrong with it.

Woman here. My college had a 4:1 male:female ratio. I got used to it, I suppose, but, I'm only honestly beginning to understand the difficulties I encountered. If an idea cropped up in my head that made me feel as though I had it rough for being female, I squashed it immediately. The last thing I ever would be willing to do was blame something I could not control. I didn't really see the depression I had, as something connected.

I hopped from computer engineering, to electrical engineering, to get a bachelors in Art. I worked cross discipline between Art and CS, to publish academically. I got my masters in CS. I was accepted as a PhD student in CS, but at that point, I was so isolated that I essentially collapsed from stress, overvaluing my work, and undervaluing my health.

I work as a software developer now, in the interim of 'not really knowing what to do with my life', being that I've seen so many facets of where I can go, what I can do, and once again, haven't got the faintest clue aside from a small amount of intuition to guide me in what to do. That, and an obsession with everything related to technology, and enough technical/logical/mathematical books to build a house with.

I don't know so much if it's that my surroundings changed that tempered my feelings, introspections, and feelings of isolation, or the experiences I've been through. I'd say it's easy, but it isn't. I'd say it's hard, but it isn't. I just sort of imagine everyone in life goes through something similar once in a while, even if on the surface, it looks totally different.

I'm a Mexican single father studying CSE in Ohio. I have can honestly say that I have never experienced any substantial form of racism but fatherhood as an undergraduate certainly brings a certain degree of isolation. I'm not complaining - I've been dealt a sweet hand - but it is a fact.

I just wanted to thank you for writing this, your last couple of sentences really resonated with me. If more people understood that everyone has something to deal with, the world would be a better place.

I feel similarly I think as an asian mechanical engineer among a group of whites. On my first day, I was subjected to an excruciating conversation with one of them telling me about how he saw a movie "about asians." Yeah, I watched a tv show about whites too. Portlandia. Ugh I'm not a race. I'm a rock climber, long distance cyclist who likes to cook indian food, and read Tolstoy in a messy room. I drive a pickup truck that get shitty mileage but I can sleep in the back.

I have been the odd man out on some teams and been part of the collective for others. The third option of diverse teams seems more inclusive on the surface.

EX: Current team has 2 black females one from the US the other from Africa, 2 Indian females from India, 1 Indian male from India, 2 white males born in the US, 2 Asian males one born in the US another born outside. Team lead is american born Asian. We are managed by a black female, who's boss is a white female, who's boss is a black male.

However, in my experience rather than have more people fit in you end up with everyone feeling like they don't fit in for a long period of time.

PS: Ok, there is the default 'can speak English clearly' group. But culture goes beyond language.

Great post but you can use whose instead of who's

"who's" is a contraction of "who is" while "whose" shows possession. Not trying to be a language pedant but my parents are both English instructors and I can't help it!

At least you were not an only Indian on the team who had to bear the stigma of a 'job stealing immigrant'.

I honestly wonder if people in this day and age care about the color of your skin. Isn't that from like the 60's?

I sometimes go to new jobs and hear comments so egregious that at first I laugh because I think they are doing a bit and mocking how bad some other people are. Then it turns out to be in earnest. It's staggering. It's like the took the over-the-top videos from diversity training, and even further exaggerated the behavior from the "don't" section.

As a white male I've never had to deal with bigotry with teeth against me, but I like to think I have enough empathy to at least understand it could be tough to feel different. And frankly, I would assume that many of us in tech might have had some awkward teenage years that could help with that mental exercise. But actually, when I see blatantly offensive stuff, I bet it is due to a lack of imagination on the part of the offender. They truly can not believe that what they are doing would make someone feel bad, that it would make them feel bad if the situation were reversed.

I have, as a white male. We have a captive IT office in south India and when visiting there you really feel like some sort of warlord. [Almost] everyone looks away, tries to act busy, and you are not included in any of the socializing... socializing which you know exists because the most popular place in the office is in the canteen around the tea & coffee machines.

This is not a bitter rant and I have made good friends in that office over the ten years I've been working with them, but to brush with a broad stroke the generalization is accurate. I'm sure it cuts both ways, too, when those folks visit our US offices where there are an ample number of Indians at all levels (my CIO is Indian, along with three of his directs / my peers, for example), but who are homogeneously westernized. They understand the south Indian culture better than anyway, but prejudices are still there.

You likely had god-like status there. If you happened to go there with a US based Indian cohort who was higher up the chain than you were, and they did not know that, the odds are good that they would ask you to make decisions instead of him/her.

Its a really odd thing. Self inflicted whatever... there must be a scientific name for such behavior.

> [Almost] everyone looks away, tries to act busy, and you are not included in any of the socializing

Indian here, that is probably because they might be intimidated by you. I am assuming that you must be tall.

About socialising, most Indians prefer to talk in their local languages because they are not comfortable talking in English. If you are part of the group they are afraid that they will look foolish in front of you talking in English.

Intimidated, sure, but not necessarily because of height. I am tall, but so are quite a few of our employees (6ft+). English doesn't have anything to do with it for most, either. It's primarily the "big powerful boss from far away" syndrome where a strong enough bond hasn't been forged such that everyone feels a sense of sameness, at least professionally. This is really tough to build, though, in a culture where job hopping is expected, inflation has been through the roof, and employees generally hold very little loyalty for their employers.

Learn some local words, I dont know where your office is located but different states have different languages.

Indian guys specially love to talk about Indian politics.

If you really want to connect with your Indian colleagues, ask some personal questions about their life, friends, siblings.

Americans usually don't like to intrude into anyone's personal life but we Indians have no such inhibitions.

If you're asking whether racism still exists based on skin color - yes it most certainly does.

> I honestly wonder if people in this day and age care about the color of your skin.

Yes, some people do. We have a cosmopolitan city of 8mm+ who make it a public policy of stopping and frisking black and hispanic males. Let's not even get started on the US president being 1/2 black and the overt and covert racism that ensued following his election.

A lot of it has to do with two generations of well meaning social engineering in our schools and workplaces to constantly acknowledge and celebrate diversity. But doing this entails never forgetting and never really feeling truly comfortable.

Every time there's a team member from some under-represented group, there is a tendency to think of it as living in some kind of "diverse workplace" stock photo instead of just getting stuff done.

This is indeed sad. "Including" different people by constantly paying attention to their differences does not look productive to me.

See, e.g. green-eyed developers (a smaller minority in the world than many others) aren't celebrated; nobody cares what the color of your eyes is. If you paid attention to it, you'd get blank stares from colleagues: "what?"

When this begins to apply to people of different ethnic origins, we will have achieved equality.

I agree completely. I hear "celebrate diversity" all the time, but when you want to get to know someone, you usually try to find things in common. Commonality is just as important.

Social engineering doesn't create the discomfort, it's intrinsic.

I grew up in northern Virginia in the early 1990's. The town, which is quite cosmopolitan today, was almost totally white and rather conservative at the time. The "social engineering" and relative liberalism of northern Virginia wouldn't arrive for several years yet. I distinctly remember one day in first or second grade being asked to draw a picture of my family. I didn't color in the faces because I didn't want to use the brown crayon for that when everyone else was using the cream-colored crayon. Nobody told me that brown was bad or anything silly like that--it was just obvious even as a small child that looking different than the people around you was significant.

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