Hacker News Reader

Comment by omonra | Hacker News Reader

I think this is an interesting read.

I personally can relate. I'm a white guy but an immigrant from Europe. Most of my friends are immigrants from the same region and I'm most comfortable around 'my people'.

But that doesn't mean that I have expectations that I will be surrounded by 'my people' at work. That's how I structure my life outside of work - to be around people that I have a lot in common with.

But work is work - the only commonality I expect is to be surrounded by people who are capable and know what they are doing.

View on HN

That's part of the problem though. You are European yes but at the end of the day you are still white and to some not so insignificant part of the population that fact means more than everything else that may set you apart.

Obviously I can't read the author's mind but my interpretation was not that she was bothered by not having other black women around her so much as she was by the consequences of that lack of diversity. She felt left out and passed over at times. She felt like she had to constantly defend her opinions, her self.

I don't think diversity in the work place is something that is an absolute must but I think in cases where that lack creates a hostile work place for some employees there is absolutely an issue. If you're co-workers are making racist comments/assumptions about you and your manager's solution is to ship you off to another office, there is absolutely a problem.

Yes - I agree with you on how she felt.

While I'm 100% in agreement that there is no room at work for racist comments (it appears that there was one issue out of 12 years), I'm not sure it's other (ie not black, not women, etc) people's responsibility to attract more people like her to the job.

We should certainly have a level playing field for people to have opportunity to study and get the jobs - but if she wants more black women in tech (something I completely understand on personal level), perhaps she should make an effort towards it. How is it my problem?

I think it's disingenuous to immediately turn the conversation from understanding the author's situation to talking about your own, including whether diversity is your problem. The author doesn't say it's your problem or ask you to do anything about it, and most of the conversation here on HN is currently about understanding the piece (including the parts where she says she is making an effort to work on making tech a better place for black women). I appreciate the discussion of the piece and wish we could stay on that topic.

I think it's disingenuous to chastise people for sharing their own experiences and feelings as not being "genuine." This is why it is so hard to have reasonable productive (thought-changing) conversations about diversity since anyone who isn't obviously different immediately gets shut down as not possibly being able to "get it."

I didn't say anything about being genuine; I think omonra's first comment was quite topical and I have no reason to think it wasn't genuine. The second comment started counting the instances of racism, pegging at 1 in 12 years and so diminishing the stories recounted, and then saying "I'm not sure it's other (ie not black, not women, etc) people's responsibility to attract more people like her to the job" and asking "How is it my problem?"

Omonra's contributed experiences are definitely useful, including the part where he says he doesn't expect to be surrounded by "his people" at work. It's the changing of the topic to "How is it my problem?" that I would like to avoid, because in general I find that the reason that it's hard to have productive conversations about diversity. Perhaps we should just spend the time to listen to each other's stories before we launch into, "Why should I care?" or "What about me?"

It is a question that can be answered directly. Really, there should be no wrong questions, just wrong answers. Shutting down the question doesn't buy any good will, you simply need not respond to it if you don't feel like it is worth answering.

Discussing these topics are always quite nerve racking, just like the complexity of the problem itself (much easier to deal with computer problems than people problems). I mean, I know you mean well, but more patience would be useful.

Let me try to address your point.

I agree that actually saying "How is it my problem" comes across antagonistic which wasn't my intent. Here is what I meant.

In the conversation about 'diversity' in tech today we really are talking about lack of black/hispanic individuals & women. So these are the three 'qualified' groups whose feeling of isolation at work is really discussed (and if a person fits two categories - double the points).

My point is that there are potentially many more (say infinitely more) individuals who may feel isolated and out of place. For example:

Old people Immigrants Lovers of opera Extremely tall / short / fat people etc

So anybody really who feels they don't fit it has the right to say 'There is lack of diversity with regards to X and I shouldn't change - we need to have more of X around so I feel comfortable'.

How would you respond if your coworker said "I'm a 55yo Scandinavian who loves opera and I feel like I don't fit in. Therefore I feel it's the responsibility of [company / society] to get more senior Scandinavian opera lovers in the field so I am comfortable"?

But somehow since the 3 groups in question are seen as disadvantaged we feel that the conversation is legitimate.

just wanted to make sure that you understood that I wasn't trying disregard your experiences. Just to point out that they are likely different in ways you might not have previously considered.

That said I do disagree that it's not others responsibility to attract more people like her to a job. I think it is a teams responsibility as a whole to create a diverse environment. Of course the author can do more to attract people she would feel comfortable working with but in my opinion it shouldn't begin and end with her.

Along those same lines I'd like to point out that just getting more diversity is only one solution and not even the one the author agitates for. Making the workplace more accepting of diversity where individuals differences don't feel the need to change to fit in is what she desires. She just wants a more open and welcoming environment. Not one that necessarily reflects her personal gender/racial makeup

Wow, way to downplay his problem.

"You're white, so you can't have problems".

How about "you're white, so your problems with fitting in with white people are probably fewer?" Your reply is completely dishonest.

edit: I'm sorry. Other people must think it's an appropriate response to misquote someone in the least favorable way possible, and try to shame them through that quote without adding a single additional thing to the conversation. I think it would be worthless in a trivial discussion. In a serious discussion, I think it's nothing but trolling.

You are being downvoted because you are trivializing someone's problem. More accurately, you claim isolation can't exist for white people.

Yes, other people have worse problems, but this doesn't make OP's problems disappear. Would you do the opposite with a happy person (other people have better lives than you so you don't deserve to be happy)?

He never said that isolation can't exist for white people. He said that an externally white appearing person has most likely fewer problems fitting in with other externally white people.

Perhaps the better way to say it was "you're white. You can't have workplace diversity angst. This article and discussion is about workplace diversity angst. So your advice on how to handle it isn't applicable because you don't suffer from the problem"

"you're white. You can't have workplace diversity angst."

But yes, you can! There are comments here about exactly that - white who can't fit in in chinese team, or even white in white team who can't fit in there. Skin colour isn't some magical 'fit in' trait.

Actually, I don't have super strong feelings on the topic. I was being quite literal in saying "This is what I think the OP was trying to say" vs endorsing it 100%.

I am white, grew up in an affluent environment that provided for studies abroad etc. After 8 years of work, I had the "that's a cute accent" transliterated to you cannot be promoted. I did get promoted eventually, but having to go through what others do to go 2 levels above me and not letting it go through. White means nothing.

As a humorous side-note. Yesterday was the Melbourne cup, a landmark race in Australia. All night, news were referring to the minimal Australian horses participation and a local big retailer Harvey from Harvey Norman) went as far as saying that there should be an Australian race (as in racing) with some of New Zealand, and a Rest of the world/barbarian race. When people honestly have issues with immigrant horses...

Yeah, us whites all stick together, we are all the best buddies. I have so many friends that Firefox crashes when I open Facebook.

" You are European yes but at the end of the day you are still white and to some not so insignificant part of the population that fact means more than everything else that may set you apart."

This is why everyone thinks Americans are idiots. "You're white" is an idiotic thing to say to a European. I am blond, blue eyed and 1.88m tall. So was my grandfather. That didn't stop Germans from killing him in a concentration camp for being subhuman.

But tell me more about my white privilege when depleted uranium from your weapons of medium destruction have made my fathers ancestral village uninhabitable unless you really like leukemia.

"This is why everyone thinks Americans are idiots." - you do realize that if you can say something which even you know to be completely untrue then how do we believe any of your other sentences?

Get out of the US and ask for adjectives describing Americans. Obnoxious, fat and stupid are the most common ones.

everyone It's the emotional hyperbole that makes it difficult to believe this is a non emotional well thought through rebuttal. More like HN's road rage.

You honestly believe that? After just reading an article regarding the plight of negative stereotypes? It always strikes me when someone can intellectually understand (and believe) a concept in one context, but not another. Would you feel it would be right to say the same sentence, but replace the word "american" with the word "black"?

you do realize the guy literally says "I am white but an immigrant from Europe" right? Unless he is speaking a different language or with an obvious accent most people won't know he's not American if he is in America.

Sorry man but if you are blonde, blue eyed, and 1.88 m tall (not sure what your height has to do with anything) and aren't actively speaking there is little difference between you and every other blonde, blue eyed, tall guy born and raised in America.

The point you ask? That there are certain things IN AMERICA that you aren't going to have to deal with strictly because of you're appearance. You may speak differently, but cops aren't gonna be stopping you walking down the street because you have a hoodie on at night.

And if you're worried that we are talking about different things than my original post then yeah. We kind of jumped the shark with the whole the Nazi's still killed my granddad thing.

There's this little place called the rest of the world where I happen to live.

Good for you but since the op and I are talking about America the fact that you live elsewhere really isn't relevant. Of course things work differently elsewhere. If you want to talk about how things work in the rest of the world that's not something I'm qualified or willing to comment on.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com