Ask HN: How I can get out of a job that has me burned out and exhausted? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How I can get out of a job that has me burned out and exhausted?

62 pointsModernMan65 comments

Four years ago I started a job and it was pretty good at first. But due to some corporate changes everybody just got slammed with work. Upper management does not think it's wise to hire more people so they are burning everybody out and people are leaving. The workload is unmanageable and it just never ends.

It's time to move on but I am just too burned out. I have even recently caught myself forgetting pretty basic stuff. My weekend are just spent recovering from the week really. I don't do much activity that I used to for fun because I am just so tired. I asked my psychiatrist and I am not depressed.

Any advice?

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There's another option. While doing the interviews, and preparing to GTFO, just go back down to 40 hours. Slow down. Increase code quality. And intentionally miss your deadlines.

This is something you can only do when things are crazy and out of control, and everyone else is leaving. You see, they cannot fire you because they cannot hire anyone to come in. Thus, you doing any work is better than having noone.

Make sure to communicate that these won't be done. Tell them that they need to make contingency plans and give them your own schedule of reasonable dates. (Of course, you need to make sure to make these dates.)

If they bring you in for discipline, play the health card. "Health is something you cannot pay enough for me to exchange. I started having major health problems, and they were stress related. I cannot meet the given dates, and I am communicating that. It is your job to manage client expectations as a manager."

The current climate for programmers means that you can do this right now.

I've done this. It mostly worked - but I had to give up some of my management responsibilities because of my health problems. I'm still gainfully employed but my superiors don't look at me as being the number one player on my team anymore- probably the number two. Another guy who spends all of his time working on weekends and on nights has taken on that role.

It's always a trade off. The organization does what it can get away with. You can pull back to 40 hours but someone else will fill the vacuum that you left behind.

So: I agree. Tell your bosses that they need to better manage client expectations, but recognize that they won't because they think they don't have to (other people are doing the work right? Management's work/life balance is fine!) You might be giving up some upward mobility or your 'irreplacable status' in your team. If you're anything like me, this will be an acceptable price to pay for you to regain some work/life balance and your health.

I think his point was to only do this temporarily while preparing to leave for another company, whereas in your situation it seems you sought to stay at your current company while maintaining a lighter workload.

Yes, that's true - and I guess my point is that you can dial it back without necessarily planning to leave, but it comes at a cost. And, better yet, the cost may not be permanent - you could regain your former status by dialling the hours back up and making sure your superiors notice, or learning how to work smart as a substitute for working hard. The other people are bound to burn out eventually.

I guess I should provide the disclaimer that a lot of this depends on your history with the company. I singlehandedly got my company through a transitional period that has caused it to double in size since. That bought me a lot of capital. And while I have not been able to keep up that pace since then, my bosses remember even if their attitude seems to be, "What have you done for me lately?"

Sounds like good advice. Thanks a lot.

1. I wish I had learned this earlier, but don't take things personally. It doesn't sound like you have in your post, but to reiterate, don't let resentment eat you up because you'll need the energy (and self-confidence) when applying to new jobs.

2. Look for new jobs...passively, at first. Put up a LinkedIn...if you're a developer, put up a Github profile. If you're a Ruby/Rails/Python, definitely put up a Github profile...I have a perfectly fine job but I keep getting recruitment emails from YC and big Valley companies simply because I have (pretty much non-used) repos that are classified as being Ruby.

3. Don't piss off anyone at your current company. See #1 - reduce any resentment or frustration you're feeling. Meditation helps. But mostly, no matter what, remember that this is just temporary...any negative feelings you have now, you're going to look back in a month (from the perspective of your new job) and you'll think..."Why was I so down/angry ?" Negativity/pessimism isn't all bad...if it spurs you on to greater things. But it sounds like you're already on your way to looking for greater things, so no need to let negativity eat at you past that point.

Edit: riffing off of other advice in this thread

4. If you aren't overworked, or even if you are, I would definitely work on some side projects, or find an open source project to contribute to. Not just for resume padding (which is frankly, not going to be enough motivation for you to work on it diligently), but to hone your skills, as it sounds like you're worried that the drain at work has caused you to regress a little. Aim for the side-projects to be as much of a win-win as possible...even if the side-project isn't popular or completely polished, have it at least be useful to you, in your own life...not only is that kind of project fun to build, but it gives you something to be passionate to talk about, either in normal life or in interviews.

probably one of the most important things to remember in OP's shoes: 3. Don't piss off anyone at your current company.

It really depends. E.g. if you're a rockstar dev, you can afford to piss whoever you want, as long as they deserve it. Making the right enemies is also a very important social skill.

Thanks for the advice. I think not pissing people off is a great point. I sometimes get mad and thanks for reminding me of that.

Here's some advice: Stop looking for advice. I don't mean to sound harsh. But considering that you had to ask your psychiatrist whether or not you were depressed (not to mention that you accepted his/her answer unquestioningly), and considering that you are asking the strangers of HN what to do, I would suggest that you aren't really in touch with your own mind and actions.

Advice will be helpful. But in the end, the only one who can leave your job is you. It sounds like you need to do it, so just do it. You'd be surprised how well you can think for yourself once you make yourself do it. :)

Sometimes you're so burned out that you need to just stop working, and sit at home and do nothing for a few months.

So this time you'll need to take a chunk out of your savings. Don't even bother looking for a new job until you're two months in to your sabbatical.

Next time, get out before things get this bad.

Wikipedia has the Freudenberger and North model of burnout. I'm sure you'll find yourself on there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnout_(psychology)#Phases

">>> Upper management does not think it's wise to hire more people so they are burning everybody out and people are leaving."

If you see a large number of co-workers, especially good ones leaving. Its a sign something is wrong.

">>> It's time to move on but I am just too burned out."

If you know its time to move on. Leave. If you have savings, pay off your rent and bills for 3-4 months and rest. Take walks(seriously take slow walks and relax), take up a relaxing hobby, cook food (fresh food - no canned food), and get enough sleep (7-8 hours minimum),whilst looking for another job.

I love working hard and I enjoy challenges, but if it means risking your health/social life/family life to meet an unrealistic deadline, this is where I draw the line. I used to work for a big company during summer vacation and the upper management had the exact same attitude your said about hiring people. They wanted a 5 man team to do a 10 man job.Into the second month I was already depressed, hoping for the summer to finish quickly. Since the day I left the place, I told myself I'll never work for a place which has a crappy work/life balance again.

Remember you are replaceable and they know it.

You're right. I am just worried on how I explain that 3-4 month vacation

"Job search".

You don't even have to lie if you don't want to. Every time I've gone looking for a job without a direct contact I could tap, it took several months. Looking for a job is a long slow process that takes maybe a couple of hours a day, even if you really work at it. It takes much less if you don't particularly push. It can be pretty much a vacation if you want it to be one.

Explain to whom? The next employer? Just tell them you took a break. Period. But only if they ask.

> Upper management does not think it's wise to hire more people so they are burning everybody out and people are leaving.

It is in everyone's, and especially upper management's, best interest that the company does well. Rather than vilifying "upper management" and quitting and being bitter about it, can you have a constructive conversation with someone up the chain to help you AND the company out? If you're going to leave then what do you really have to lose?

If it were me I would approach someone and say something along the lines of:

"I'm quite concerned for the well being of the company/organization/whatever. I noticed that there were some corporate changes recently and since then many employees, myself included, have felt burnt out and some have even started leaving. I think this is due to the fact that we are understaffed and this problem is only going to be exacerbated as people leave. What do you think?"

This could result in a number of things including decreased workload, more hires, or nothing. In the positive cases everyone is happy and in the third you don't lose anything and can still quit your job.

Best of luck!

> Rather than vilifying "upper management" and quitting and being bitter about it

He simply stated a fact, there was no vilification. Their reason was they didn't think it was wise, people are being burned out and quitting. No name calling, no vilifying management there. Sometimes the truth isn't flattering.

> Rather than vilifying "upper management" and quitting and being bitter about it, can you have a constructive conversation with someone up the chain to help you AND the company out?

While this may theoretically work in some situations and is arguably "worth a shot" for someone with so little to lose, I've seen workplaces similar to the ones the original post is describing and the times I've seen this happen talking things out with management was not fruitful.

In my experience (admittedly anecdotal and a relatively small sample size), in a company that goes sideways as described by OP you have 1-3 levels of manager on top of you who are just as frazzled by the whole situation as you are. They will commiserate, throw their hands in the air and tell you they've tried pushing for changes, realistic release dates and/or hiring more resources and have been denied by levels above them. Talking directly to their managers (VP or perhaps higher at this point) ends up in a pleasant conversation about vague, nebulous reasons why things can't change right now and everyone has to buckle down to help the company toward the brighter future that is right around the corner. They will rarely-to-never give you direct reasons, eg. the company is running out of money and seriously can't afford any extra resources, and the next release is a hail mary attempt to save the business and that's why it needs to be out on date X because the runway is totally gone at X+Y where Y is a laughably small number if you ever actually learn it.

>>It is in everyone's, and especially upper management's, best interest that the company does well.

I think you're attributing a level of rationality and benevolence to upper management that doesn't always (or even often) exist.

It may very well be that the reason they aren't hiring more people is because they want to increase the money that goes into their own pockets. Or maybe they themselves have burned out and become bitter about "disloyal" employees who keep quitting and they don't have any energy left to do something about it.

If you aren't doing so already, start a daily exercise routine before deciding your next step.

Jogging, workout, walking, cycling, swimming...whatever you like at whatever time and duration are convenient to you.

They give you a kind of physical and mental high that'll help cope with stress.

I felt short term boosts in self-confidence and more long term improvements in memory and recall (YMMV, of course).

I've been there before when you may be working 48 hours without a 5 minute break that can be impossible, I've had employers push me to the point of near death. Start looking for a better job now its obvious they don't care and guess what if you suffer a major health catastrophe as a result if overwork no one will care put yourself first and start looking now.

This is great advice for high stress situations. But if it is overwork, it can be impossible to take up an exercise routine when you are working 36 - 60 hours straight every other week. I've been there and remember just trying to stay conscious let alone going for a run.

Need not be anything strenuous. Just a dozen pushups are good enough and take hardly half a minute. Jumping up and down like a little kid is fine too! The idea is to divert the mind away from the source of stress.

Right, but when it is exhaustion from not sleeping for days at a time and working 14+ hours days 7 days a week for weeks at a time it stops being about stress and simply trying to stay physically and mentally conscious. It sounded to me original question was about dealing more with exhaustion than stress. For stress, I would consider exercise an excellent suggestion.

I suggest the following:

1 get off work no later than 6pm

2 walk/jog/exercise

3 cook your own tasty+healthy dinner and share it with friends

4 read a bit

5 find some hobbies

Do this for a few weeks. Then figure out what you want to do next.

Oh yeah, watch "Office space". Seriously.

I handed in my resignation recently. Can confirm, watching "Office Space" then buying the soundtrack and repeatedly listening to "Damn It Feels Good To Be A Gangster" was great moral support.

Is there any reason why you can't walk into your manager's office tomorrow and say "this is my two weeks notice"?

Yes. If there isn't a reason, do this. There are plenty of other companies that would love to have you.

Well there's a few reasons like I need money to survive, I need healthcare and things like that.

How long can you go without working?

Just quit.

Or... take unpaid leave, medical if need be, and have some time off.

Just quit, have a vacation, apply someplace else.

Had the same issue, just moved to another country changed job. Started going to the gym, started going to meetups. Take a long vacation and think about what you want to do before you jump ship.

I mean, the obvious answer is 'do something else', but it's kinda up to you what that is, and also depends on your situation.

If you are single with no dependants, then it can be anything you want. Do something where you don't take work home. I burned out on Sys Admin work and worked as a bartender for a year and loved it and came back as a .Net developer.

If you have a family...Um... That's a much more complicated scenario. Definitely do something new, but navigating that is going to be a lot trickier.

Could I ask, is there a "bullying culture" where you are now?

The reason I ask is because that is the only way I could reconcile "The workload is unmanageable and it just never ends." It's hard for people who haven't experienced it to explain why you can't just start saying no to requests and leaving the office on time (even though this is possibly the only way to salvage the situation).

What do you mean by bullying culture? There are times when somebody wants something done, you explain to them that it's not possible or that it can be done but it may take some time due to current queue and they go directly to to the CIO/CTO and complain. I consider that a form of bullying so if that's what you mean then yes it's rampant. Some do it some don't.

If you just agree due to fear of repercussions, and "they" know this and manipulate it to their advantage then yes, that's probably bullying. Best case you're working with sociopaths.

What are your skill sets? If you're a good programmer you can easily land another job these days. If you don't have time to look and apply for jobs then may be you should quit your current job to look for a new one. It may sound like a bad idea now but in retrospect it'll may be worth it. Just think of the opportunity costs associated with staying at current job or leaving it. Good luck!

There's a middle ground, you could just take any minimally acceptable contracting job. You won't be mentally committed to it, as no one would think you were obligated to stay past the initial contract period. Just find something that's not overly demanding. This will get you out of the rut that's your current job, and hopefully give you time and rest to consider your next real position.

Having been in a similar situation myself, it's obvious to me that you're working for a company that's circling the drain. Low employee retention is toxic even when management is actively recruiting to fill the gaps that are left, and the fact that they aren't suggests to me that either the company is in dire financial straits already, or else it is being so badly mismanaged that it soon will be.

In such a situation, the only thing I can recommend is: make it your top priority to find another job. The longer you stay, the worse it's going to get, and the greater share of the blame you will be lumped with when things go pear shaped.

If you can't find one quickly that matches your current seniority and salary, would you be prepared to consider something a bit lower down the scale as a stopgap? This wouldn't have to be long term -- just as an interim for a couple of months or so until you can find something closer to your expectations that you can make a bit more permanent.

I think in terms of IT ( development including) they have always circled the drain. But other departments which are the majority of the companies function keep it afloat.

How I can get out of a job that has me burned out and exhausted?

To give you the honest truth, speak up or quit. You are not doing yourself or your employer any favours staying and burning yourself out.

I was in the same situation about 6 months ago myself. I was part of a small team that was increasingly being overworked and expected to deliver in unrealistic amounts of time. Overtime was being factored into estimates and instead of overtime being a sometimes thing, eventually all projects were actually taking into account weekends. Nobody was being paid for the extra time and once new management came in, unless TOIL (time off in lieu) was agreed upon in advance, you were not given time off at a later date.

I left and while it was hard because I loved the people I worked alongside, I did it for myself, my career and my family. You are not doing yourself any favours by staying, so stop asking for advice and make a decision.

Commenters, please note that the author did not say "overtime" or "long hours".

My advice: start working on a side project which will give you satisfaction from every half hour of your work. Does not need to be an IT project. You'll think of something.

> The workload is unmanageable and it just never ends.

I'm not sure there is another good way to interpret that statement.

Reef is actually right. There's not much overtime. Now while that to many may seem like a great job where there should be no burn out. I can say that it is still very stressful. The reason being there can just be so many things going on at once. Projects that should take hours to days end up taking weeks to months due to just the sheer number of them and the constant barrage of interruptions. Context switches are expensive. Every time somebody else has nothing better to do they feel like they should bother you.

First, start working the hours that they actually pay you for.

Take a personal day.

Understand that you have a business relationship with your employer. Mentally, you have to be ready to tell your employer that "I'm sorry, but I'm really not in a position to subsidize your business any further."

If you haven't already, contact the colleagues that left and connect with them (add them to linked-in, etc). Ask them if you can use them as a reference, see if they have any job leads. Get the contacts of the people you still work with - before they leave.

Do not waste energy trying to fix the company you work for. You just can't. Yes it sucks but that is reality.

I really love this line "I'm sorry, but I'm really not in a position to subsidize your business any further."

Lots of people will tell you to take it easy, to reduce your workload, slow down, etc.

That's fine and all. Sometimes you need to do that.

But, more often than not, the following advice is more beneficial:

Stop waiting for life to get easier. Stop wishing for things to slow down and for you not to be so tired and burned out.

Chances are life will get faster and more difficult. Chances are things will not get easier.

So, instead, focus on getting stronger.

One thing is in your control the other is not.

“Don't wish it was easier wish you were better. Don't wish for less problems wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenge wish for more wisdom”

― Jim Rohn

I'll add one last thing before this gets down-voted into oblivion. You are a hell of a lot stronger than you think.

The human spirit is indomitable.

Remember that.

I'll add another:

It doesn't matter where you go, until you change, everything will remain the same.

edit: For relevant context: if you're thinking about quitting, your alternatives are 1) give two weeks and leave, for another job or not.

2) stay and say nothing, hope it gets better

3) Risk it. Talk to your boss. Apply for other jobs quietly if you want some security.

I like this part if the thread. I always like to push he boundaries of myself, redefine what I can be, expand on what I am capable of, but procrastination is tough to deal with.

+1 to the exercise / walking. Has changed my mindset. Way fresher at complex problem solving. About 20min into a long walk and ideas are just popping!

Also, scale back your time. Communicate this to management: "I just can't do this anymore". Last time I did that (2005) they said they would start looking for my replacement. A few months later they were still looking and I had a new 30h/week job+3weeks+healthcare at a bank walking distance from my apt.

Treat yourself correctly and the world will do the same.

It would help to know about your location, most things relating to HR are location dependent. If you're burned out and exhausted I think some sick leave to begin with would be entirely appropriate, assuming you're going to be paid while on sick leave. Then, when you've recovered a bit would be a good time to evaluate your options. When stressed out or tired do not make important decisions if you do not absolutely have to.

Sleep! Mindfulness-based meditation is easy to learn and even if you have trouble focusing at first, it's still helpful for getting in touch with your stress/anxiety level (so it doesn't creep up on you over months and years next time). Finally I'm sort of an introvert but I've learned being social is so important to my happiness and sanity. Anyway, good luck!

Pretty much the same answer as 'how do I find a job, I'm unemployed'. I'm sure you could answer that question more or less.

Let us know if there's any specifics that make your situation unique.

In any case, I'd make a schedule. For example make a plan to quit in two months. That'll give you some relief as it's something to work towards. Use up any vacation days you've got left. Tell your boss in a month from now you're quitting. And save up every penny the next two months you can to build a bit of a buffer. Try to save up enough to pay rent and food and such for a few months.

And really, start applying for other jobs. When you do tell your boss you're quitting, tell him you disagree with the current workload and that you'll be quitting in 4 weeks unless you can work something out. Perhaps they can propose a middle ground, if not you can leave.

In general do everything you can to not be dependent on your current job, meaning: find alternative jobs + build up some savings.

You should start working less until you feel better and then move on to another company.

I would agree with this. work less. spend time more on yourself. in my case I look for something new to learn. go to gym more often. and also take it easy and look for a new job.

Hit the brakes. 9 to 5. If your boss has an issue just let him fire you.

> and it just never ends

It ends at 5pm. Job searching starts at 5:30pm. Don't wait too long to find another job or else you'll be desperate and take another bad job or sacrifice negotiating power.

I really don't work more than the normal 40-45 hours a week. It's just the work at work never stops piling in and then it overlaps. Then hearing the people complaining.

Kevin the CTO of Mattermark here. A lot of people have had good success using our product to find cool companies to work at. I'm also happy to help you out with application / interview tips. Email me if you want a hand kevin@mattermark.com

Wow only $4799/yr to "find cool companies"? Where do I sign up

I was going to snark and say "monster.com"

Then I went to Mattermark and read about it a bit... could be useful. Maybe a bit excessive to get more than the free trial for a job search, but, for investing, it could be useful.

Kevin is a genuinely cool person. His offer of assistance and advice is something people should be happy about.

Mattermark went through YC recently with Kevin as CTO.

Kevin thanks so much that's so nice of you. You seem like a genuine person. Mattermark though seems like a tool for investors though. Maybe I am wrong.

If you are able to quit, please post the name of the company here.

start interviewing, taking days off.

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