The Problem with Positive Thinking | Hacker News Reader

The Problem with Positive Thinking

nytimes.com

103 pointsdonmcc20 comments

I take issue with the title of the article, which seems to equate positive thinking with naivety. It's link bait for exactly the people who don't need it: the despondent and cynical.

Agreed with this. The author doesn't distinguish positive thinking (being hopeful, working towards goals you think you can achieve, etc.) and naivety (well everything will work out for the best!).

Frustrating to read articles like this

Agreed and exactly this is what I was thinking while reading this! Positive thinking vs. naivety differentiator was not there!

Doesn't the author?

> This simple process, which my colleagues and I call “mental contrasting,” has produced powerful results in laboratory experiments. When participants have performed mental contrasting with reasonable, potentially attainable wishes, they have come away more energized and achieved better results compared with participants who either positively fantasized or dwelt on the obstacles.

> When participants have performed mental contrasting with wishes that are not reasonable or attainable, they have disengaged more from these wishes. Mental contrasting spurs us on when it makes sense to pursue a wish, and lets us abandon wishes more readily when it doesn't, so that we can go after other, more reasonable ambitions.

Sounds like positive, but realistic, thinking taking into account the obstacles is what's being recommended.

I know a psychology professor who often says: "The only people who see the world clearly are the clinically depressed."

Reasonable self-deception is actually a very important thing for us to develop, because we're not good at doing things we don't believe ourselves to be capable of doing. It's not about thinking you're superman, or pretending you've accomplished something you haven't. It's about giving yourself the go-ahead to try.

There's even a term for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

Yes the title is total click/link bait garbage.

However the article is kind of correct.

Positive thinking without action is almost a waste of energy, however positivety leads to optimism which leads to action.

Context: I'm the CEO and developer of positivethinking.net (mobile app)

There are many different things that people mean by "positive thinking".

This article seems to confuse prematurely patting yourself on the back with believing it's possible to accomplish your goals.

Consider a less radical interpretation- something more along the lines of optimism vs cynicism. Then you can easily see the benefits of positive thinking.

Imagining that you can make a difference when pursuing your goal leads you into all sorts of events and skills that a negative state of mind would keep you from.

In my mind, it's a question of what tools to apply to different layers of abstraction. Like, you want to overall have a positive, optimistic outlook. Then, use negative thinking when double-checking your work or planning for contingencies.

I actually have discovered this about myself recently. I have left my full time job not long ago so I can start a business and initially was very optimistic about the future and I was taking my time in every task and enjoying the moment but when my worries have increased I started envisioning worst case scenarios in my head and that's when I started getting things done much quicker. Looking back I also think I did well in school thanks to my worries but that also made me lose hair due to stress lol, so it's not always good to worry and a good balance is perfect.

Nobody likes unpleasant feelings. For many people it is even worse than physical pain. Positive thinking and similar strategies offer a seductive way to temporarily suppress negative thoughts and feelings, but deluding yourself will likely bring only disappointment in the end.

Is disappointment in the end worse than disappointment in the beginning and middle?

1/3 disappointment < 3/3 disappointment

The article links to paywalled studies. Psychology studies are often hard to do. Has anyone read the studies to see if they're reasonable or awful?

Depends on if you are a positive thinker, really.

Non-paywalled links (incidentally, Google Scholar is very good about digging up free PDFs, often uploaded by the authors themselves):

>More than two decades ago, I conducted a study in which I presented women enrolled in a weight-reduction program with several short, open-ended scenarios about future events — and asked them to imagine how they would fare in each one.

Oettingen, G. (1991). Expectation, Fantasy, and Weight Loss: Is the Impact of Positive Thinking Always Positive?. Cognitive Therapy and Research, 15(2).

http://www.psych.nyu.edu/oettingen/OETTINGEN1991WEIGHT.PDF

>In a 2011 study published in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, we asked two groups of college students to write about what lay in store for the coming week.

Kappes, H. B., & Oettingen, G. (2011). Positive fantasies about idealized futures sap energy. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 47(4), 719-729.

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/46284/1/__libfile_REPOSITORY_Conten...

>In a recent study on healthy eating and exercise. we divided participants into two groups.

Stadler, G., Oettingen, G., & Gollwitzer, P. M. (2010). Intervention effects of information and self-regulation on eating fruits and vegetables over two years. Health Psychology, 29(3), 274.

http://www.psych.nyu.edu/oettingen/Stadler,%20G.,%20Oettinge...

Stadler, G., Oettingen, G., & Gollwitzer, P. M. (2009). Physical activity in women: Effects of a self-regulation intervention. American Journal of Preventive Medicine, 36(1), 29-34.

http://www.psych.nyu.edu/oettingen/Stadler,%20G.,%20Oettinge...

The key point which is quite valid is that daydreaming about success is not very useful. Contrary to "The Secret" and such self-help books.

People seem to succeed if they a) Have a lot of confidence they will succeed AND b) They are fully aware that there will be setbacks, struggle, difficulties, and moments of doubt.

Good book on the topic with academic references "Succeed: How We Can Reach Our Goals" by Heidi Grant Halvorson and Carol S. Dweck.

I realize it's probably not a popular opinion, but I feel that healthy streak of cynicism has helped me more than it has hurt me in life.

I guess the learning portion has been not to avoid being cynical, but to avoid expressing cynical sentiment to others. Very few like to hear it. But I believe immediately suspecting official explanations from almost any source to be self serving attempts at deception often lands one closer to actionable truth than simply accepting them at face value.

The premise of the article reminds me of the metric of "fielding average" in baseball. A player can have a high fielding average by playing it safe and by not aggressively running to the ball in play. So, it is possible that a more aggressive player can have a lower fielding average and yet contribute a lot more value to the team.

The author is confusing positive thinking with blind, without-a-plan, plowing ahead. They're not the same.

Optimism and positive thinking are close synonyms. Positive thinking is the a belief that there is a solution to the problem and that you, as a problem solver, should be open to the paths that lead to the solution.

The article only mentioned the 'fix' put forth by the author. What is mental contrasting and how does one do it?

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