Zuckerberg Speaks Mandarin, Blows Everyone’s Mind
wired.com
wired.com
(1) Chinese people are blown away when a Westerner speaks Chinese, and (2) Americans are blown away by anyone who speaks Chinese.
I have been taking daily Mandarin lessons for the last few months, since I'm traveling increasingly often to Beijing to teach programming classes (in English), and want to be able to communicate more easily with my students and colleagues. I'm having a super-fun time with it, and definitely feel like I'm making progress. It's slow progress, but it's something.
My friends in the US and Israel seem to think I'm some kind of mutant super genius for being able to learn Chinese. I keep trying to tell them that a billion people have managed to do it, so it can't be that hard, but they are completely surprised that it's possible.
Moreover, even when I say something short and simple (with an undoubtedly very strong American accent and mediocre tones), my Chinese friends and colleagues are blown away, impressed by my ability to learn the language.
Zuckerberg seems to be where I hope to be in about a year or two -- namely, a with good vocabulary, decent but imperfect grammar, and a terrible accent. I can live with that.
The impressive thing here is the time needed to do this. Zuckerberg is a busy guy, and taking a few hours each week to study Mandarin isn't necessarily something that you would expect him to make time for. Then again, he just got married and doesn't yet have children. Hmm, maybe I am a mutant super genius for learning Chinese while married, consulting, and with three children...
Regardless, my wife took this news as proof that I'm doing the right thing. She's convinced that there will be even more people flocking to learn Mandarin, now that Zuckerberg has shown that it's possible.
Just two days ago, my postal carrier asked me a question about computers. (She's knows I'm in high tech.) I started to explain things, and she said, "What you're saying is Chinese to me." I said, "Actually, I'm learning Chinese," which she definitely didn't expect!
Yes, a lot of them know a second language, usually because of family.
Of course that's not what it shows when most tourists don't even try to speak the local language in Europe.
Long story short, they frequent different ethnic grocery stores and restaurants and some customers will make comment about them, directed at his wife, that they fully don't expect him to understand. Needless to say he does and usually replies kindly with how nice it is today and did the see that great item on a certain aisle.
So it works both ways, for many of us the need to learn a second language isn't there and the ambition to do so doesn't work well without the need.
Mandarin syntax is surprisingly easy, with no articles or weird things like irregular verbs or messy conjugations. The tones throw people off, and the written characters are extremely difficult to learn (for Westerners; Japanese, who have exposure to Chinese characters, do quite well at reading and writing). Fortunately, there is a Romanization/phonetic system called pinyin that makes it quite easy to get started with pronunciation and tones.
Yes, Mark is speaking with a very heavy accent and needs to work on his tones. But the fact that Mark was able to get to this level without living in China (he says he’s only visited 4 times, although it sounds like he’s able to practice with family members, including his wife’s paternal grandmother) is very impressive. I think it would be fair for many Chinese citizens to ask, if the busy CEO of a major American company who seldom visits China can learn Mandarin, why do many foreign businesspeople who have lived in China for years fail to learn the language?
Headline disproven.
Edit: it is impressive, as any language skill remote from you mother tongue. But I am not a fan of superlatives, especially if they indicate that I should take part in the appreciation.
FWIW: German headline on the topic: "Facebook CEO [...] impresses students".
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/facbeook-chef-mark-zucker...
If some one from USA/UK/France, for example, learns a new language it definitely is a surprise. May be blows the mind is not the right word.
On the other hand, it is common for people from Southern India to know 4 or 5 languages and it is not surprising.
For people in international companies, learning new languages on the job is also very normal, almost all companies have programs for that.
I'm wondering if Mark is the first Fortune 500 CEO to ever learn a different language while working as a CEO? I'm almost certain he's the first American CEO of a fortune 500 to learn mandarin while working as a CEO.
For the people I know moving to different countries, learning the local language is usual.
All my foreign employees are by the way contractually obliged to learn my local tongue (on our cost and time, obviously).
French people "learn" german and english but are terrible at it even after learning it for 10 years.
Scandinavian people learn english and are actually fluent with a good pronunciation after a few years.
It's probably changed now - while I haven't been to France lately, in other parts of Europe when I try to practice the local language, people under 30 always tell me "Please, speak English, we understand and it is easier for both of us."
However, in Zuckerberg's case what he has done is incredibly impressive because he has learned a language which shares no commonalities with his own native tongue, all while being a CEO of a multi-billion dollar company. That alone makes it worthwhile news to community of geeks HN is.
> csa[0] Speaks Mandarin, Blows Everyone’s Mind
Doesn't seem to be interesting, does it. As long as you keep Zuckerberg (or Musk, or Gates, or Obama) in there, though…
> <famous person> <does an unlikely thing>, Blows Everyone's Mind
…anything in place of “Speaks Mandarin” works.
Such canned formula headlines, and stories that primarily are newsworthy due to combination of elite persona and unexpectedness[1] just make me cringe, nice to know I'm not alone in this.
[0] Another HN user also commenting on this thread
Learning a language is not impressive in any way.
The only people who's mind was blown are probably people living in large countries like the US, the UK, France ...etc.
He's the CEO but his job is also to delegate.
Not sure that as a European I have a different view on things, but I very much agree with this comment.
|But those blown away by Zuck’s Chinese chinwag might want to know that though he’s clearly memorized a lot of relevant words, those were still shoehorned into a distinctly American grammatical order. Pronunciation is also a problem: He showed a plucky disregard for the tones that Mandarin has—one tonal slip-up had him saying that Facebook boasts eleven mobile users instead of 1 billion—and his enunciation was roughly on par with the clarity possible when someone’s stepping on your face.
Still, I'm impressed. Mandarin is (f'n) hard, takes balls to speak a language you don't master in front of a crowd (and subsequently all teh interwebs).
No, we shouldn't give him the Nobel Peace Prize for it, but we can say "nice, good on you", and carry on our day.
A review of his Mandarin based on a close listen of the first 5 minutes of the video and listening to the rest in the background while I type this (let me know if it changes later):
tl;dr - Definitely ILR 1+, probably an ILR 2. Pronunciation needs a ton of work, but that's not the only aspect that is measured when analyzing speech. The foreign policy article (linked in another comment) is overly critical, imho.
Detailed:
ILR LEVEL
He's definitely at least an ILR 1+. He shows signs of ILR 2 characteristics (and is probably an ILR 2), but it's hard to tell if he can sustain them in a wide range of contexts. While his pronunciation needs A LOT of work, the language itself is comprehensible to a sympathetic native listener. I strongly disagree with the Foreign Policy article that says it was "terrible". I would say that it's actually kind of amazing given that he's the CEO of a huge company. I would roughly say that he is on par with a good / above average 3rd year student at a school with a really good Chinese program. The original article says 2nd year, but this would be a superstar 2nd year student who was either a heritage speaker or had spent a lot of time in China (e.g., as a homestay or study abroad).
DISCOURSE STRUCTURE AND STYLE
He is able to sustain the dialogue for a long time. He is able to circumlocute decently (this really opens up the ability to communicate), but I would really like to see his range of circumlocution. He is able to string together his sentences in moderately cohesive paragraphs. He does not demonstrate the ability to combine paragraphs cohesively at a high level (signs of an ILR 3), but I don't think the tasks really required it.
His style of answering questions was very American -- very direct. I don't think that a Chinese speaker who has lived exclusively in China (i.e., not educated or trained in the "West") would answer the same questions similarly. In this case, I actually think that it's best for him to answer in an American way even if he could answer in a Chinese style, but that's a different and longer discussion.
Early on when he tells the story of his wife and her grandmother, he really comes across as quite charming.
GRAMMAR
He does decently enough. There are errors, but it's not hard to understand what he is saying -- especially for a sympathetic native listener. The sample didn't really demonstrate a wide range of grammar, but the tasks didn't necessarily require a wide range. He is able to say complex sentences (i.e., two independent clauses), and he is able to speak in different timeframes (normally tenses, but Chinese tenses are not like English). This all points to a solid ILR 2, but grammar is definitely not the toughest part of Mandarin.
VOCABULARY
He has a decent vocabulary -- it's solid for the task. I wonder what his vocabulary is like outside of the topics of personal bio information, Facebook, and Facebook business. If he wants to get to ILR 2+ or ILR 3, he will need to work on the accuracy and diversity of his vocabulary.
PRONUNCIATION
This is easily his weakest point. He has a HEAVY American accent. He mispronounces a lot of words. His tones are WAY off. He seems completely unable to say English loan words in Chinese (e.g., Facebook, Google, etc.). It's actually kind of hard to listen to. That being said, I would say that it is all comprehensible to a sympathetic native listener.
SUMMARY
Overall, really good for someone who is not studying full time and has a very involved full time job. I wonder how much of it was practiced or rehearsed -- a lot of the questions are ones that he definitely _should_ practice (e.g., the story about why he started studying Chinese), since they are standard questions that would be asked to him and/or the Facebook CEO. Regardless, speaking in a foreign language to a large group of people is not easy, and he came across really well.
RECOMMENDATIONS
He can work on his pronunciation in several ways:
- Listen more. Even if it's on in the background, it will help. Right now, I don't think he has a good intuitive sense when he is mispronouncing a word.
- When working with a teacher, do lower level language tasks, and act like a native speaker whose voice/accent he likes. Research suggests that this lowers affective filters for pronunciation.
- Work with suprasegmentals with a pronunciation program that visualize what he's saying. It can be enlightening.
- Practice over pronouncing words. If he does what he perceives as a "caricature" of pronouncing the word, he will probably be closer to accurate.
Other than that, listen more, read more, and I think he will become a rock-solid ILR 2 with room for growth if he wants it.
That's my quick-and-dirty. I am very interested in the informed opinions of others.
Also yay I learned a word - circumlocution.
For those wondering, here is a list of what various ILR levels entail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale
Although I find the scale rather odd. When it comes to English, you could easily classify me as ILR 5[1], but on account of my heavy accent and the fact that I sometimes grope for words[2] you could put me in ILR 3. Can anyone explain in more detail how this works? Is it subjective on part of whomever is doing the evaluation?[3]
[1] I've published books in English and until people hear my accent they normally mistake me for a native speaker. I also have a terribly tendency to fix native speakers' grammar because it bothers me too much.
[2] I'm used to using two languages at once (Slovenian and English) so when I'm put in a context where I can only use one, I start groping for words. This happens both in English and in my native Slovenian.
[3] I remember doing IELTS tests a few years ago and I got marked down on listening comprehension and speaking fluency because the lady expected me to diss GMO's and I disagreed with her opinion and told her the various benefits they bring. She thought I didn't understand what she was saying, so I had to fake a different opinion to satisfy her expectations.
I'm not saying you don't count as fluent unless you have a perfect accent. But I am surprised how few foreigners, having mastered English grammar and vocabulary, don't take that final step (leaving none the wiser about their foreign origin).
Americans make fun of how I pronounce certain words (which actually helps a lot in normalising my accent), but they can't place the accent either. Nobody guesses that I'm slavic, a lot of people ask if I'm Brazilian or from some random European country.
A large part of the confusion probably stems from the fact I use colloquialisms and even colloquial speech patterns, like, correctly.
With prolonged stays in the US my accent is going to normalise further, but I think that getting completely rid of it would require some sort of accent coach. So far the only motivation for doing so is that being told "Wow your English is so good!" is getting annoying. I was proud when people told me that ten years ago, but it feels silly now.
But a big benefit of maintaining my foreigner status is the freedom it affords me. I can use British slang, Aussie slang, East coast slang, West coast slang, even Canadian slang and nobody minds or finds it odd. Whereas if I sounded like somebody who grew up in California and used a British turn of phrase, it would sound hella weird.
And, obviously, I feel a certain level of smugness when I use British words that Americans don't understand because then I get to call them plebes and mock them with my larger vocabulary. (Americans get really upset when a foreigner is better at something than they are, it's funny)
Though I'm sure he had a really good teacher.
Impressive. In my home country, you can't get your graduate degree without speaking 2 languages besides your mother tongue -- and the difference between English and Hungarian is not really smaller than English vs. Mandarin.
(Not necessarily an accurate one; but as a European, that seems to be how the average American is viewed)
Cantonese, on the other hand, has a decent amount of media but relatively little in terms of materials aimed at teaching foreigners.
Taiwanese learners have a decent amount of local television and music to lean on if/once they reach a high level of competence, but there isn't even a standardized written language! Instead there are the following horrible options:
1) Use an essentially unworkable system of trying to apply patchy etymological research of Taiwanese going back to middle Chinese to guess which characters modern syllable could be represented by.
2)Picking characters with similar Mandarin pronunciations, using a romanized script. This has the drawback that Taiwanese has several sounds and tones that Mandarin doesn't.
3) Use a well developed and self-consistent romanization (aka our alphabet) system developed by missionaries over a century ago. This is pretty decent but there are competing romanizations.
4) Use a mishmash of characters and roman letters together. This is very common.
One advantage both Cantonese and Taiwanese hold over smaller languages is that it's not too hard to find speaker communities in just about any major world city and many of those speakers are fully fluent only in that one language and find Mandarin to be a painful alternative. If you want to study an American Indian language like Blackfoot, you'll have the additional problem that every speaker of it is bilingual in English.
All in all, I don't think Mandarin ranks anywhere near the most difficult option for English speakers. It's certainly harder than romance languages, but in the big scheme of things it's of medium difficulty at worst.
I suppose it would be easier for me to learn Spanish or another language. But would it also help me to learn Mandarin?
Mandarin is probably so far from European languages that I can't even identify the expected learning roadblocks.
P.S: kudos on speaking Dutch. Amazingly difficult language. Tough pronunciation, strange grammar (for us coming from non-germanic languages at least).
The main difference is the tonal system, reading it it sounds easy, but training your ear to pick it up takes time. It's hard to follow an audio when you're not picking up the nuances of the tones in context.
The language structure is kinda logical, so far. I haven't reached tenses or multiple clauses yet.
I found some pronunciation similar to French, for me ren (Zh: people) is similar sounding to rien (Fr: nothing)