Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit | Hacker News Reader

Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

economist.com

98 pointsanishkothari52 comments

There's also evidence that we are less susceptible to biases when given hypothetical scenarios in foreign languages. I am considering keeping my todo list in a foreign language, in case that helps me prioritize e.g. sales, where things like loss aversion might stifle it.

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/04/18/095679761143...

I've tried that, and it does not really work. Turns out I'm just as averse to paperwork in English as I am in French.

It can also have a significant downside: I've tried maintaining a todo list in a language that I'm not very good at, only to realise that looking up highly specific vocabulary was such a chore that after a while, I'd unconsciously skip writing some entries that looked too complicated to translate.

Have a go, it might work out better for you, but this particular experiment was a failure as far as I'm concerned.

My "nights and weekends" project for the past few years has been writing iOS language learning apps. The niche that I'm looking to fill is to create enough "games/drills" to help alleviate the incredible repetition needed to learn another language. Anyway, I'm looking for suggestions so I can find my niche in a really crowed market...

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?...

I'd really appreciate any ideas or suggestions.

I'm no expert in teaching languages but I may be one in learning languages (5 foreign languages so far). I can say that I only really "get" a language when I can start reading on my own (news and such). The approach I'd love to see in a language is one of progressively more difficult texts.

At the very beginning, it's very hard to find texts I can grasp, given limited vocabulary. A collection of interesting texts that ease in vocabulary and grammar would be a godsend. Forget formal grammar training, forget spaced vocabulary repetition. Vocabulary extends naturally when reading texts, formal grammar is much more obvious after I've spotted the pattern on my own (and a drag before).

http://www.newsinlevels.com/ is the perfect news site for English learners based on your suggestion. They present the same news item in three different levels so you can start with the easiest one and progress to the harder two to grasp the usage on your own. We use it for our son, it makes wonders.

Good luck! Here is my own iOS language learning app (Japanese): http://itunes.apple.com/app/id492005575

It seems like it's difficult to make much money unless you are one of market leaders. Check out mindsnacks if you haven't already.

As someone who spent years studying and teaching languages, my single biggest advice is to remember that learning a language is not simply a matter of learning words. Don't fall into the trap of throwing a dictionary full of words into an SRS and hoping for the best. Focus on input, not production.

Include phonetic training. Make the user distinguish between each minimal pair in the language, possibly even every single syllable in the language. This is simple, but rarely done.

Include an extensive reading component. This is a monumental task that could be broken into many apps or many short stories that are in app purchases.

Good luck! I'm really, really hoping to see something better than the very low bar hit by existing apps!

> Include phonetic training. Make the user distinguish between each minimal pair in the language, possibly even every single syllable in the language. This is simple, but rarely done.

I believe that this is very good advice.

The realization there are actually different sounds in different languages has came as surprise to me. I always naively assumed that the same sounds where just combined differently. Obviously this has had a negative impact in my learning.

>Make the user distinguish between each minimal pair in the language, possibly even every single syllable in the language

I have so much trouble spelling words like definately^W definitely, because they sound the same to me ;)

Memorizing how to spell a word like "definitely" would be one of the worst possible uses of a language learner's time.

What I was suggesting was aural training—learn to distinguish words such as "his" and "he's", to hear the differences between bat, bet, bit, bot, but, bait, beet, bite, boat, and boot, etc...

Various idiosyncrasies of an orthographic system are far less important than being able to hear difference between the sounds of a language.

With regards to definite, I found the tie to "finite" helpful.

I am somewhat amused by the multiple studies and articles on Bilingualism. Simply because I happen to be just one of the many pentalingual (if that's a term) people I know. My entire family speaks five languages. English, Hindi, Marathi, Kutcchi and Gujarati. Kutcchi and Gujarati are what I was born into. The rest are mandatory through school here (Mumbai, India). So anyone who went to school is at least trilingual. In fact most students are fluent in at least 3 languages by the time they are 6 or so.

If there is any good at all in being bilingual, what does it mean to be trilingual? Let alone pentalingual? Does the law of diminishing returns apply?

Aside from English, they're all closely related languages (Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati). I wouldn't really expect knowing related languages to give the same payoff as say knowing languages from different groups or families of languages.

Let's take three families of languages:

((Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese),

(Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati),

(English, French, Italian, German, Dutch, Latin))

Are you saying that knowing one from each set is more beneficial than knowing three from any one set?

I wouldn't group them like that, English/German/Dutch are Germanic languages, while French/Italian/Latin are Romance. Japanese also a bit removed from Mandarin/Cantonese. But, yes, I would argue that knowing unrelated languages broadens ones perspective far more than knowing similar ones.

Interesting. I was looking at:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEurop...

There are subdivisions like Germanic and Romance in the language family which do seem sufficiently far apart. However, there are quite a few subdivisions that seem very closely related.

I wonder if there is a way to draw entirely new subdivisions based on benefits of knowing languages from each subdivision.

Also, intuitively, what you say about knowing unrelated languages makes sense. I am curious however, if you had some deeper insight or knowledge into why (if true) this might be?

Japanese isn't even remotely related to Mandarin and Cantonese. It's a language isolate.

It's unclear if it's an isolate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japonic_languages

Also from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language: "During the Heian period (794–1185), Chinese had a considerable influence on the vocabulary and phonology of Old Japanese."

I think that qualifies as somewhat related?

Just because a language borrows significant amounts of vocabulary from a language, it doesn't mean that it's related to that language. Take, for instance, English. Neither the fact that English has borrowed significant amounts of vocabulary from the various Romance languages (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, &c.) nor that Norman French had a large effect on the language's orthography and phonology make it a Romance language: English, in spite the many, many outside influences upon it, is still solidly a Germanic language. About the only odd thing about English is its lack of V2 word order, and there are still _plenty_ of vestiges of it.

The same goes for the influence of Chinese on Japanese, only more so: Chinese and Japanese aren't remotely related.

As far as Japanese being an isolate, please keep in mind that the Ryukyuan languages are practically dead and all the other Japonic language are long since dead. There's some _very_ scant evidence that it might be part of the hypothetical Altaic group of languages, but the evidence is weak at best, and only marginally more plausible than the Nostratic hypothesis.

I wonder to what extent using several programming languages has the same effect. If the hypothesis about language switching as an inhibitory mental exercise is correct, then polyglot programming should have some of the same benefits.

This is more of an anecdotal bent, but I've long felt that knowing multiple programming languages makes me more productive and confident when using any one of them, because I have a better understanding of where their respective strength and weaknesses reside in a broader spectrum. Now, this year I took to learning Korean as a hobby, which is markedly different from my native German (and English) - and I think I'm starting to see this pattern replicated in that realm to some degree. Particularly because the vocab has completely separate etymology. It's giving me some new general insights into how humans approach certain topics, which factors transfer and hold true across the different language spheres and which don't, that sort of thing. It's incredibly satisfying even in the little time I get to spend on it.

So at least in that sense, I think you can get something similar out of the two.

Are programming languages more tools or languages? To put it another way, if I know several methods of knitting, would that offer similar benefits of being multilingual, or are human languages different than other tools?

Maybe a better analogy is musical instruments. I've heard knowing how to play multiple instruments offers significant cognitive benefits.

I don't think it applies. Being bilingual means thinking in two different languages. I'm talking about your inner voice.

As far as I know, people don't think in Python or C. I would say that a programming language is like math. You can use it as a plugin in your language, but you still need the main program which is your language.

I might not be so much about the language but about the paradigm. Certainly going from Java to C++ might not be that different but through in something like Haskell and you almost have to entirely rethink your solution.

One thing is setting your logic to follow a certain way of thinking, and a completely different thing is the language you are using to think.

Furthermore, programming languages are written in English. A real language cannot be written in another language.

I'm not a linguist nor a programmer, but I'm trilingual, and I have scripted at a basic level. And honestly, although I see the resemblance, I don't think that programming languages and real languages work the same way.

I'm trilingual (Spanish,French,German) and program fluently in at least 3 languages (Python, Javascript, PHP). Things in common: You build an idea in the air and shoot it in the language. Happens to me a lot in German where I don't have a vocabulary as wide as Spanish on English that the brain will have to build a sentence maybe 30% longer but it will eventually bring out something that does the job. When I'm coding I just know the program needs to do certain thing. Python is very straightforward while with PHP usually I need to build some auxiliary function (same as German , not that the word doesn't exist but I don't have it in my Head at the moment). Also, very obscure concepts like "Dativ" conjugation do exist in spanish but since it looks the same as "Genitiv" and "Akkusativ" , nobody pays to much attention. However when you are speaking German you'd better understand that as you need them to correctly build a sentence of the fly. An example analogy with coding would be generic data structures like arrays in PHP but in Python are more rich like Lists, Dictionaries and Tuples(IMHO)

You're not trilingual, as you also speak English :)

I agree. I notice that when I do imperative programming, I think through a sequence of steps, usually writing them down on paper if there is any complexity. When I "think in SQL" I read out the "from" and "where" clause in my head (or out loud). There is definitely a verbal element in my SQL thinking.

>As far as I know, people don't think in Python or C. I would say that a programming language is like math.

Are you saying people don't think in math? They definitely do

It might be difficult comparing even python and c but what about lisp and c or prolog?

I think it'll exercise your brain when learning new programming languages that solve problems in different ways, building up your logical and critical thinking skills. But I think learning a new spoken language will exercise the brain more broadly since it's more complex.

Perhaps the ambiguity of natural languages is essential to them functioning as mental exercise though? There's a lot of alternatives to consider for phrasing and word-choice. In contrast, programming languages are very structured (by necessity).

I bet it does. Even using a different route on your commute has some positive effect on your brain. Switching mental gears always helps to exercise your brain.

Only if you use and learn a language in a different paradigm. There is pretty much zero benefit to learn Java if you already know C# or vice versa.

Probably not, most programming languages boil down to the same thing with different syntax.

The same could be said of natural languages. People spend a lot of time talking about similar things in every language.

not at all, most express different concepts. Of course there is overlap and you can get by using the same concept in different languages and ultimately they boil down to asm, but you need to think differently about the interpreter. It's the same with related natural languages.

Most mainstream imperative languages. SQL is a world apart form Java.

I wonder if knowing (and using) a third language or even a fourth will reduce the dementia/ increase the positive effects even further.

also makes me kind of wonder if there is any benefit of only knowing one language

I dimly recall reading an article on a study that tried to compare the performance of monolingual and bilingual people. From what I remember the bilingual individuals tended to have an edge in the more complex tasks, but monolinguals were significantly faster at some basic operations like sorting lists of words or finding a word in an unsorted list.

The last part makes sense, it's similar to a game where they introduce more and more unfamiliar symbols to you as you progress to higher levels, the more unknowns you have to deal with the more you slow down. Eventually, if/when you learn them well you get most of the speed back. I guess most people learning 2nd languages don't learn them well enough to know the 2nd language really well; technically, if you know both languages equally well, the speed penalty/overhead will be minimal, similar to expanding one's vocabulary in the same language (as long as you don't exceed some threshold of mental capacity).

I'm not sure that's it. I need to preface this by saying that I'm working from really dim memories here, but from what I recall they were using a definition of 'bilingual' that people who learn a second language after a certain age don't fit, and the tested bilinguals should feel at home in both languages.

Rather, it seems that having more than one language active in the brain concurrently (which requires them to be similarly well developed and in regular use) requires the brain to do more active selection work. I'm not sure this actually makes sense or is just my reading of it, but basically it can't jump to one thing immediately, but has to eliminate the alternatives first. This gives the bilingual brain an edge in tasks that benefit from being well-trained to do that step (and seems to help stave off dementia, where inhibitory control goes out the window, which is a necessity for this selection process to happen), but slows it down in other tasks that would benefit from not having to do the extra work.

In other words, if you're asked to sort or bin a list of English words, it seems to help if your brain doesn't have to wade through a soup made of multiple languages. But if you're asked to do something that exercises similar muscles as wading through this kind of soup (maybe "process strained analogies"? - I kid), it gives you a different sort of edge.

I want to be careful about these sort of research. Too many times I've seen these kind of "research" is often funded by commercial entities that teach foreign languages. It's like what PG had described in his "Submarine" essay.

There is a big industry to teach foreign languages to toddlers and even new born. There is quite a bit of reputable research to back up positive effects however no one seems to be doing research on if there are any negative effects. This is like every research starts with a hypothesis like there are either positive effects or nothing . But on the other hand there are proven facts that toddlers/babies learn only certain number of words in a given period. This implies kids at that age have limited capacity to memorize and recall things. So wouldn't that imply that bilingual training at that age would halve that capacity? Could bilingual babies have less volculbary in each language and late start in figuring out deeper nitty gritty of grammar? Is it possible that bilingual training at early age exchanges depth for a breadth?

What you say about research being partially corrupted by agendas is generally true and applies to pretty much every area of science to varying degrees.

The claim that second language acquisition is defined solely by this is, however completely false. It is a large and well-researched academic discipline and there exists plenty of research regarding negative effects. Here is a pretty decent summary, with a very compact abstract:

Bilingualism: The good, the bad, and the indifferent

http://www.yumingschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Bilin...

> The present paper summarizes research showing that bilingualism affects linguistic and cognitive performance across the lifespan. The effect on linguistic performance is generally seen as a deficit in which bilingual children control a smaller vocabulary than their monolingual peers and bilingual adults perform more poorly on rapid lexical retrieval tasks. The effect on cognitive performance is to enhance executive functioning and to protect against the decline of executive control in aging. These effects interact to produce a complex pattern regarding the effect of bilingualism on memory performance. Memory tasks based primarily on verbal recall are performed more poorly by bilinguals but memory tasks based primarily on executive control are performed better by bilinguals. Speculations regarding the mechanism responsible for these effects are described.

Anedoctal evidence:

I'm 37, italian, always been good at speaking english (since I was 7).

In the past few years, my command of english improved so much that I started forgetting words both in italian and in english. /facepalm

Ha, I'm English and I've been living in Italy for two years (so my Italian is still not exactly incredible) and I'm starting to find the same! I wonder if this happens because the two languages can be very similar at times and at other times very different. Would things be a lot different if I were learning, for example, Japanese I wonder?

I've been around a lot of people who were raised bilingual in English and an oriental language and most of them complained that it was too hard. They felt that at the high school and college level it's not possible to fully develop advanced vocabulary and usage in both languages. You can risk coming across as non-native or stupid in both languages. I think a lot of this stuff about bilingualism is biased toward people learning two related indo-european languages, which isn't that hard.

Perhaps it depends on the languages. I was raised in English; French was added starting at 5. Today, at 49, I am fluently and idiomatically bilingual in English, French, and various idiomatic variations on both common to the provinces in which I've lived (I can switch from stock-standard English to various idiomatic dialects and accents, as many of you can, e.g., formal English Vs the street or town English you spoke growing up, from those used here in Ontario to lilting dialects and accents of Nova Scotia; I can do the same with a few Quebec Joual dialects.)

With a couple of days in Paris, I am taken for a native. Same thing in New Orleans or Chicago (I have to be very careful about not drifting into local accents, I just sort of go there.)

So it is possible to be perfectly bilingual - but it requires early exposure to the second language and an ear (which can be developed - you have to stop listening to specifics, to particulars, and listen holistically, letting the language flow over you so that you understand the intent without understanding individual words - practice that for a while, and the words come).

I also speak passable remedial Spanish and have learned and forgotten a whole lot of Turkish, Arabic, German, and Greek.

After a while, your inner voice switches to non-linguistic (which I think might mean it returns to what it was before you had language, i.e., as a child). I used to think mostly in English, but nowadays I think in, well, viscera. I then have to find the words that most closely match the viscera. For simple things, that happens quickly. For complex things or subtle differences, it can take time, during which I sputter.

About 6 months ago I ask a friend's daughter whether this had happened to her yet (she was raised in French, added English much later, then some Spanish, and finally did intensive German prior to heading o'er the pond for her M.Eng).

Her eyes went wide and she shrieked "OUI! OUI! Exactement!" She turned to her mother: "M'man! Il comprend exactement qu'est ce qui m'arrive!"

(Yes, yes, exactly! Mom! He understands exactly what is happening to me!)

She'd been going through the same thing and didn't know it had ever happened to anyone else.

It's a truly strange thing, mind blowing - and mind expanding.

Sometimes, I can sort of disconnect from language. It frees my mind in a most powerful way. It's tricky to get there, though, and sometimes even harder to get back.

I don't think this has anything to do with learning languages. This kind of processing is also very common among mathematicians, physicists and programmers. More generally it is probably more common than you think especially among people whose default mode of thinking is not linguistic.

It happens to me a lot! And sometimes I can't find words in neither of my languages, and then turn to English (which is strange, since I learned English at a later point).

I was bilingual in English and German the first few years of my life, but the German gradually drifted away. I think the last time I had a German-language dream (that I recalled) was in my early teens. At this point I don't function well in German at all.

I think my English vocabulary is large and nuanced. Spelling and pronunciation can be a bit of a challenge at times, however. :)

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