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If the cause of the problem is the negative attitude towards women on Turkish side, how is the problem on both sides? Or sexism is something acceptable?

Somehow the purported negative attitudes of Turks against women is considered more significant than the negative attitudes of the majority Germans against the minority Turks.

Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations of Turkish boys. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes.

Teaching is a popular career path for many women in Germany. It offers many benefits (especially as a civil servant). That isn't going to change (and nor should it). So if Turkish boys do have a problem with that, then they need to get over it.

"Both need to change their attitudes."

If this is the case, Turkish boys changing their attitudes should automatically lead to teachers changing theirs. If the teachers changed their attitudes, you wouldn't expect Turkish boys to change theirs.

> This is cultural problem on both sides [...]

Why both? And why just a cultural problem?

Did you mean that the Germans could/ought to smack the disrespectful Turkish kids around and that that would make things improve? Otherwise I can't make sense of the idea that there is blame on both sides.

bayesianhorse said it better than I can:

  'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's 
  expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and 
  objective performance.'

Nobody needs to be "smacked". Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes.

There you go again with "both".

Turkish boys have a greater tendency to misbehave than German boys (and Danish boys, Swedish boys, etc).

We seem to agree that those Turkish boys (and their parents) ought to change their attitudes. And everybody else around them also needs them to change their attitudes. So who is the other party who needs to change?

Edit: inserted the word 'also' + emphasized to word 'needs' for clarity.

Much of these difference can be explained by socioeconomic status. Germans from equally poor backgrounds don't behave any better. They may not speak heavy dialect when they disrespect a female teacher, but otherwise it's much the same.

And when you are from a muslim background and you want to disrespect your teacher, you'll choose other words and justifications than a German would. I'd caution against overinterpreting juvenile power plays in terms of religious biases though.

I was thinking the same. We don have a lot of racism where I come from, despite having a fairly large Indian population. We do have a lot of problems with people at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.

You may want to think of your opinion to be an objective truth, but it isn't. Your explanation that muslim children don't respect female teachers is complete bs, in my opinion. The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf.

In Germany, I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions, but don't consider themselves Racist. (It's "The Truth", how can it be racism?)

There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.

Another confusing factor is that most Turkish "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago and helped build the country. But they were low-skilled laborers. And their children suffer from the same adverse selection problem as German "underclass" children do.

It's just so much easier to pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor that makes Turks dumber.

Woah there. You've extrapolated a number of things that I never stated. Let's revisit this:

   'but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong 
   tendency'

I went out of my way not to generalize. I stated a tendency. There is no hard and fast rule here.

   'The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, 
   especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a 
   headscarf.'

I did not mention headscarves. Not once. I stated 'misogyny'. The two are not the same.

   'I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme 
   right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions,
   but don't consider themselves Racist.'

"Multikulti" was a concept was popularized by the liberal Alliance 90/Green Party. Merkel, of the right leaning CDU stated multi-cuturalism has "utterly failed" back in 2010 [1]. This is a partisan concept. I therefore struggle to see how you can associate the attempt by the German people to have a multi-cultural society as racist. I don't understand how you make that connection?

   'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's
   expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and
   objective performance.'

That I agree with.

   'Another confusing factor is that most Turkish 
   "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their 
   parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago
   and helped build the country.'

Agreed, these children come from a migration background. I should have made that clearer. My observation was that specifically the boys have a problem with women teachers telling them what to do. This includes female teachers that come from a "Migrationshintergrund". Women having a position of authority over these boys is a problem for them.

  'pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor
  that makes Turks dumber'

This one baffles me. I stated that these boys have a discipline problem. I also stated that these children are not achieving their potential because of the misogyny, not because they are dumb.

Bottom line is that a misogynistic cultural attitude is prevalent in Turkish society. That misogyny concerns the role of women in the work place. It especially causes problems in schools where women teachers hold positions of authority over young men who do not like, and are not used to, that scenario. As a result come discipline problems that (as you so eloquently put it) 'the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance' results.

It is a vicious cycle. Hence, I went out of my way to state that both sides are to blame. You appear to have overlooked that fact.

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

Well, the green party isn't using the word "Multikulti" a lot these days. I do hear it a lot when people want to justify racist beliefs, though. And a lot.

The pure fact that there are multiple cultures in Germany is very evident. And it's not just immigrants. Point is: You can't get rid of people that don't suit your cultural preferences. You can't force assimilation. Instead, this constant "assimilation debate" is more a means to scare off foreigners.

You didn't say anything about genetics, but others do. Especially the "Sarrazin school" of racism. Strongly associating faults and delinquency to cultural backgrounds or religion isn't that much better, though.

Most (purportedly) muslim students don't exhibit mysogyny against female teachers. It is simply wrong to ascribe most or all of these problems to misogyny, even if this explanation is so simple and logical.

It also doesn't point to a solution for these problems.

¨The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf.¨

How is that relevant to your argument?

It is relevant in that the headscarf is a symbolic issue in immigration debates in Germany. The biggest ethnic minority in Germany are the descendents of turkish migratory workers.

It's a symbol of conservative muslim faith (in the eyes of Germans) and subjugation of women in general. Most muslim organizations and German politicians with a turkish background actually appeal to fellow muslims not to wear headscarves.

My point was that there is no widespread refusal of integration, and that misogyny in muslim Germans is usually exaggerated. I didn't want to explain that too thoroughly because the post would have been even longer.

This actually sounds like a great way to help integrate folks into the German culture. As more and more disruptive children are relegated, and more parents ask, "Why?" receiving the answer, "You don't respect women," perhaps behaviors will slowly change.

I wonder what other ways would work better?

Is that irony? I hope so, but I can't tell. Slapping people around is usually not the way to change their attitudes...

Currently there is a perverse segregation going on. German parents (and any immigrants who know what's going on) send their children to schools who have a low rate of immigrant students. And with good justification. But this also means that the best teachers and other resources go to these schools, while creating schools with lots of problems, worse equipment, worse teachers and a thorough helping of students whose parents don't object to low quality.