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Comment by JoeAltmaier | Hacker News Reader

I'm thinking this may be an illusion. Is there any evidence that this route works?

I know that the effective programmers I work with, have similar life stories. They love programming, have done it since they were young, do it for themselves and not just for work.

The guy who gets a CS degree because there's money in it may get a job somewhere, but not in the circles I travel in. Which is architecture, design, backends, libraries and embedded solutions.

So what is the real opportunity to a part-time online-course student?

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I know this isn't exactly what you are saying, but just because someone learned to program later in life doesn't mean that they are only in it for the money or that they inherently aren't as competent.

There seems to be this attitude in tech that if you weren't coding in kindergarten then you haven't met the prerequisite for being truly "one of us" in the tech elite, so why bother trying?

But to address your main question, there are many roles that benefit from programming knowledge aside from the 'hard CS' ones you list. For example, in my previous job as a technical writer learning to program was helpful for a) documenting our APIs and writing sample code, b) creating web-based documentation and c) running scripts in Adobe InDesign to generate automated documentation.

Grant all that. The question remains: what kind of skills can you get taking the 'soft' route? They won't be the same as a University degree, and not nearly the same as a lifetime of devotion to the art. Did we really address that yet?

"Programming knowledge" is a deep, deep well. Its not going to be captured without real effort over a long time.

Of course 'programming knowledge' covers a spectrum. At CareerFoundry we have never claimed to be training people to become Senior Full Stack Web Developers - like with many careers there is progression within the job. You start off at one level, you learn more, you progress and hopefully get promoted. We teach Ruby on Rails, HTML5, CSS and Javascript. With these coding languages under your belt, and the sufficient experience, you could get a job as a Junior Developer. Of course, like you said - and like with so many careers - reaching that next level takes real effort and dedication over a long time. But there is absolutely no reason why people can't get started in their careers at the bottom rung of the web development ladder with these skills, and work their way up by learning on the job and alongside their colleagues and peers.

Many thanks for your comment.

I think the real opportunity is to explore (hopefully in depth) whether or not development is the right thing.

Its definitely not fair (and not true because I know people who are the far other extreme) to say that you have to grow up being a developer to be a great developer.

Example?

Our CTO had a traditional engineering education almost 2 decades ago, but never touched web development. He worked as a project manager for 8 years. Nokia, Textr, etc etc. 2 years ago he started to learn web development. Today he's built a major platform and directs a team of crack developers. Is it a unique and special example? Hell yes. Can everyone do that? Almost definitely not. But is it proof that not having grown up coding doesn't mean you can't become a coder? Yes, very much so. And he's not my only story like this.

On hacker news we also talk a lot about developers with developers, many of which take it that to be a dev you have to be crazy talented across the board. I personally am totally ok with people who learn the basics of code, to start building sexy looking and simple websites as a freelancer. Hell I know people who learned front end, ruby (because it's "cool"), a little PHP then started working with a group of common platforms like Square and Wordpress, designing front ends and making an incredible living for themselves. I think that's totally a valid outlook for people in bootcamps, and not always considered in the conversation here....

Would love your thoughts!

I tend to find a lot of the folks coming out of online or bootcamp-level courses start off as front-end or app (usually web app) developers, and then gradually pick up the backend and architecture pieces as they grow as a developer.

There are also simply those who want to pick up these skills and apply them in their job -- one of the Thinkful students I mentored was a GIS data analyst who just wanted to be able to write scripts around the data he was working with.

Deeefinitely relevant. We teach a full stack course (as many other bootcamps both on and offline) but sometimes the goals of students aren't that broad to begin with. They start with a small chunk, and then pick up projects that perpetuate their learning as they go. I can totally get behind that!

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