Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
washingtonpost.com
washingtonpost.com
Isn't that the definition of censorship? I'm surprised they don't actually use that word in the lawsuit: http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/201...
Really happy to see more companies doing this though!
Given the countless flawed or flat-out wrong positions the Supreme Court has taken over the centuries when it comes to individual rights, I think we can likely agree they are not always right in their conclusions.
They weren't trying to constitutionally base it. Does that help?
Twitter's best line of argument is to go directly to violation of their First Amendment rights, and avoid getting side-tracked on questions of "is this censorship" and "is censorship constitutional in the general case".
Not that the government gives a fuck, but still, just to be clear about what we're discussing here. But yeah, "obscenities laws" are most certainly unconstitutional.
What is "the freedom of speech?"
You can take it literally: the freedom to say anything you can speak. You probably don't want to go down that route, because the obvious corollary is: "fine, then the First Amendment doesn't cover publication, electronic communications, or expression" because those things are outside the dictionary definition of "speech."
You can also treat it as a phrase that has meaning in context, like "object" does in computer science. But you can't have your cake and eat it too: the same interpretive process the Supreme Court has used to create exceptions to the freedom of speech has also been used to take the freedom far beyond what literally qualifies as "speech." This is particularly true if you're talking about obscenities laws, which mostly deal with things like images and performances which aren't literally speech.
I have the same reaction to the national security theatre that we're always presented with from classified space. "Trust us there's a real threat, but you don't know about it because it's classified". They can't tell us anything about their 'constant' and 'heroic' efforts to save us from the evil monster redacted. There's no evidence presented to me.
On the other hand, the real bad guys are constantly doing stuff to get in the news. So the only conclusion I have is 'national security' is the bureaucratic way of saying "my girlfriend lives two towns over".
I boarded a commuter plane (prop plane, less than 50 seats) last month at a small town airport. It had pre-9/11 security in place and a broken metal detector. I got a quick pat down that didn't even cover all my pockets. From there, I got on a cross country jet identical to the ones that hit NYC or the Pentagon on 9/11.
It is pretty clear either:
A) The government is so incompetent they can't be trusted with providing anything resembling security.
B) They don't take their security theater seriously.
Would you say I am wrong tho?
I have made the same observations in the past when traveling.
To me - it seems like the government has chosen to draw the line in the sand so far beyond where it should be, to avoid having the actual debate over corporate disclosure of more-specific information.
I'm saying that disclosures that add no value to the public discourse but are of value to criminals are not a good choice of tool for protecting freedoms.
To put it another way: supplying useful information to criminals while not helping the public is not a desirable state of affairs.
In your analogy, it would be closer to someone logging and then disclosing the fact they had logged in at some point (years) in the future.
(FWIW, I am not a security researcher, but I've heard about how these things work. Would love to be corrected if wrong. :) )
I thought they were going farther - that they wanted a per account notification ability; not the case.
Or we can just push for Congress to stop renewing the Patriot Act next year.
With the intelligence community hacking into Senators' computers to defend themselves from investigation, even admitting it, at will, with no reprimand? And have it barely scrape the news?
Is it that easy? Can we just repeal bills like the Patriot Act? Look at how easy it was for Australia to invent a media blitz of fear to pass legislation allowing surveillance that has no counter terrorism purpose.
Voters will only be informed if both social and traditional media are able to provide actionable, verifiable and non-biased reports.
Media will only be able to provide quality information when political, intelligence and profit interests have less leverage than an educated purchasing public majority.
Political/intelligence interests will only have have less leverage if we pass meaningful enforceable legislation to curtail the use of selective privilege, story seeding and psychological operations to achieve policy goals.
Congress will only pass meaningful enforceable legislation if the voters demand it.
...
By and large the public know about the Patriot act and support it, you may disagree but don't pretend they don't know about it.
>Voters will only be informed if both social and traditional media are able to provide actionable, verifiable and non-biased reports.
The reports are there yet the public has yet to be swayed.
>Media will only be able to provide quality information when political, intelligence and profit interests have less leverage than an educated purchasing public majority.
Media can and do provide quality information.
>Political/intelligence interests will only have have less leverage if we pass meaningful enforceable legislation to curtail the use of selective privilege, story seeding and psychological operations to achieve policy goals.
Rolling back freedom of speech is a non-starter.
We need to convince voters that the Patriot Act is bad not pretend they have been victims of mind control.
> Rolling back freedom of speech is a non-starter.
* Governments have a free speech right to propaganda. (The techniques I suggested 'rolling back' are only used for the purposes of propaganda).
> Media can and do provide quality information.
* Despite barriers and through mires of conflicting accounts, the media is able to effectively report information to a public that doesn't pay it and is able to ignore the influence of the institutions that do.
> By and large the public know about the Patriot act and support it...
* The public has wildly different opinions about the effectiveness of Obamacare than it does the Affordable Healthcare Act. Despite countless examples like this it is because of an efficient and reliable news system that the American public has a good sense of politics, the issues that the country faces, the trade-offs inherent to national legislature and how domestic bills fit into larger policy goals and geopolitics. There is no politicization of the media, or where there is it is recognized, sourced and understood as a defining piece of narrative context.
> The reports are there yet the public has yet to be swayed.
* But despite this really good reporting there's a real debate about whether global and ubiquitous surveillance, espionage and sabotage is legitimized by counter-terror purposes even when the programs in question have nothing to do with terrorism.
> We need to convince voters that the Patriot Act is bad not pretend they have been victims of mind control.
Information control. Don't burn too many calories on the straw man.
But hey, governments are "by the people" and "for the people" of course, and to think otherwise would be tantamount to.. actually seeing what's happening!
E.g. report 1: "We received 0-500 NSLs" report 2: "We received 450-950 NSLs"
Whether a judge will agree that you've complied with the requirements after that sort of trickery is something else entirely. I can't imagine them not complaining about that sort of tactic and whether you get away with it might depend on the judges and lawyers involved.
It's especially frustrating that the lowest range includes zero, so it's impossible to say for sure that a certain company has never received a request.
Not exactly something anybody would really want to risk.
(I am not a lawyer, I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice).
The Fed has caused more destruction of wealth in the last 20 years than all the private sector bankers in US history have combined. Not a single person from the Fed will ever, nor has ever, gotten into trouble for it. They can destroy the US economy with insane rates, QE, stimulus measures, you name it. They can debase the dollar and steal trillions in savings from average Americans. They can encourage incredibly dangerous asset inflation and speculative behavior with 'free' money policies, and nobody will ever do anything about it.
Are there civilian federal criminal prosecutions without juries? I can't recall hearing of any.
Fundamentally, the courts are there to uphold the rule of law. If the law's an ass then that's a job for the legislature.
So, is it possible for them to say "We have NOT received 8 or 10 requests"? This clearly doesn't say how many they have received but gives a clue that they might have received 9.
Please ignore me if this is silly.
I think we get the impression that it's not that way based on our perception of corporations driving money-filled trucks through legal loopholes, but it's just not the same thing to a judge. Regardless of whether it is to you and I.
I get the impression that not everyone is playing by the same set of rules, not that they have particularly clever lawyers (although, most of them probably have that as well).
I often wish law was written more like a computer program, with lots of unit tests up front. But I have no idea how to actually achieve that. Real life is so much more complex than input to any computer program that an attempt to formalise law even more than it already is formalised would just result in it being totally incomprehensible to the people who have to follow it (as opposed to mostly). Plus the man on the street tends to get very angry when people who are "obviously" guilty get off on a technicality.
Take a law like: No driving a motor vehicle in the park.
Obviously that means no cars, but does a wheelchair count? How about a power assisted bike?
But I know what they meant, and keep my motorcycle off the bicycle trail. However, the pedant and software developer in me is bothered just a little when I read those signs.
I.e. put up a cryptographically signed and timestamped statement that you haven't received a request, then don't update it (or simply take it down) once you receive a request.
Don't some open source projects do this?
http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt
It's not as sophisticated as the blockchain, etc., but about as good - if you pick sensitive pieces of financial news it's clear you could not have known about them in advance. Or sports results.
Another law of successful (or at least apparently effective) "law hacking": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_in...
Common law systems really aren't as simple as "only intent matters, absolutely nothing clever is tolerated", as many suggest. The problem is mostly that, whenever computers are involved, people involved in the justice system seem to have their sensibilities bizarrely warped. Removing the technological element is likely the best way to get people to think about things sensibly. It is not so much "legal trickery" as it is "framing the matter in terms that the court already understands".
I hope that catches on.
Edit: can't believe I got the name wrong. Fixed.
Edward.
</pedant>
The founders recognized pure democracy was not an ideal government, regardless of technological issues with regard to implementing it. A republic allows decisions to be made that the majority will never agree to.
Don't make them seem like a bigger deal than they really are. Most of the 1% has barely any more say in the direction of the US government than anyone else. The gaggle of assholes responsible for the plight of America couldn't fill up a small town.
More seriously, if you decided you could do this in (say) Switzerland, you'd have to move the company there and all of the admin staff to prevent them being suborned by the NSA. Most countries you'd want to move to have lengthy immigration procedures. The cost is huge, not just financial but cutting yourself off. Remember, if you truly annoy the intelligence agencies, you'll go on the no-fly or visa denial lists, and you'll never be able to visit your family again. Just look at Snowden.
It's a political problem. No surveillance without acountability.
Congress and the President moved quickly to stop tax inversion deals recently. They'd do the exact same thing on the basis of national security were major intelligence assets to attempt to leave.
The US Government will not give up the massive global information network it possesses in the way of Google / Apple / Facebook / Twitter / Yahoo / Microsoft etc. Under no circumstances will companies of this sort and value ever be allowed to crawl out from under control of the US Government.
Why do people here have to be so cynical? Twitter is doing a good thing here arguing that the government saying they can't release NSL number they are restricting free speech, which is completely true.
Releasing these numbers pose no threat to national security and just shows the DOJs scorched earth policy when it comes to defending their perceived powers.
This is a great thing for Twitter to do and it should be praised for doing so, not be given cynical/snarky replies.
Twitter is a business. Whatever they do is preceded by the expenses vs benefits analysis. In this case the only benefit is an improvement of their public reputation. They want to disassociate themselves with the state surveillance machine.
However this lawsuit means an absolute zilch in terms of an actual surveillance issue. Nor does it move a needle on the very fact that there NSLs exist to begin with. It serves no public interest, it doesn't change things and it's asking not just for peanuts, it's asking for the dust off the peanuts shells. It's a farce. Just as you said - releasing these numbers is a non-issue, so the government will resist for a while and then it will yield. Everyone will cheer for Twitter and the victory, but things will remain exactly where they are now.
The only reason why this lawsuit exists is to improve public's perception of Twitter. It's a PR stunt. I don't see what they should be commended for.
Look I get it, you don't think what Twitter is doing adds any value and thats great but in reality you are just being smug and not really adding any value to the conversation. You are just trying to spread your smug dim view of the world and you aren't really helping anything by doing so.
Instead of always looking for the negative or the cynical view in things like this like "Well they are just doing this for the PR", why not look at it and say "This is awesome that a company is fighting in court to release this type of information to the public." It really will change your view of the world if you start looking at positive and will improve your life dramatically.
Twitter is doing something here that they don't really have to do because they could just go along with the other big companies, follow the guidelines the government laid out and no one would say anything. They have gone further to demand to release exact numbers and more importantly are fighting to stop the government's practice of being able to gag companies in these situations. It may be a small step but it is a first step and they should be commended for it no matter the motive. Good for them and I thank them for picking this fight for all of us.
> Instead of always looking for the negative or the cynical
view in things like this like "Well they are just doing
this for the PR", why not look at it and say "This is
awesome that a company is fighting in court to release
this type of information to the public." It really will
change your view of the world if you start looking at
positive and will improve your life dramatically.
Patronizing, misguided, but very deep. Must be from the early Dr. Phil, right?I think it would be a 'big deal' if Twitter and other companies started reporting the exact amount of NSLs they receive when they receive them. That would be great. Whether this lawsuit will result in that, even if Twitter wins, is not clear.
But really, trials and the rule of law are so 2000.
[1] http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-google-v-nsa-lawsuit-to-proce...