Why women leave tech: It's the culture, not because 'math is hard' | Hacker News Reader

Why women leave tech: It's the culture, not because 'math is hard'

fortune.com

30 pointsprostoalex12 comments

Article should be titled: "Why parents leave tech: It's the culture"

That "not because 'math is hard'" part is extremely trolly and click-baiting. Also kind of sexist (as the article itself is making that implication out of the blue). It is also never touched upon in the article (i.e. that isn't a real quote, just a fiction for the title's own sake).

I actually like the article, and agree with many of its points and conclusions. I dislike the title of the article very much.

I will say that many of the criticisms layed out in this article to tech's culture could equally be laid at the feed of almost every other non-child-related industry.

The lack of work-life-balance and or flexibility is a huge recurring problem for all parents with young children. I highly doubt tech' is the worst offender in this area, however it is fine to discuss it in the context of tech' as it remains a legitimate gripe (and frankly I can see tech' being a progressive enough industry to fix some of this).

I worked for a lot of tech companies in the UK, and all the companies had women project managers and developers without any discrimination that I could see (I'm male). It probably helps that the UK has mandatory maternity leave, and the company must employ you again after you come back from leave. I now live in Canada, and it has similar maternity benefits.

Basically the problem is that you live in a country where people are scared shitless of socialism so mothers get fuck all when they have a baby.

Any decent employer should give you reasonable benefits over and above what is required by law (i.e. nothing), and if they tell you that you should be wearing your beeper while on leave you really should tell them to fuck off.

The U.S. has mandatory maternity leave as well. The problem isn't getting time off of work.

The problem is that you don't get paid. The problem is that you don't get a salary increase because your managers, knowing you're a recent mother, have expectations that your productivity will drop more than a man with a newborn.

It looks like the U.K. has solved the getting paid part, though: https://www.gov.uk/maternity-pay-leave/pay

Slate.com is running a series of articles where women from various European countries discuss maternity issues. The purpose is to shed light on European vs American experiences. The U.S. is behind the curve, but not by as much as you'd think.

The lack of pay is the main issue...a lot of women simply cannot afford to take the unpaid time off work.

Ukraine mandates paid leave, which can be extended for up to 3 years (with partial pay), which created an unintended consequence - it's extremely hard for a young woman to get hired, and it's next to impossible for a young woman with a hint of pregnancy to get a job.

There are anti-discrimination laws, but proving anything in court beyond reasonable doubt is time-, money- and energy-consuming.

I work in the US as a programmer for the last 15 years, and have had female managers everywhere I've worked.

"Everyone was the same, and no one was like me. How could I stay in that situation?"

I don't sympathize with this viewpoint.

Why not?

Have you ever lived in a foreign country? Specifically one where the culture is drastically different, or where your ethnicity stands out?

I have. And it can be draining, no matter your constitution, and even without any identifiable prejudice directed at you. It's part of human nature.

Civilization takes work. Things like democracy don't simply pop into existence. It takes an evolution of culture. Male-dominated workplaces need to meet women somewhere in the middle. I think the present situation is unfair, particularly because there are all sorts of men who simply cry, "but why do I have to change my behavior!? "I was here first, and nothing I'm doing is intrinsically wrong!" Those people just don't get it.

I agree with you that things like this take work. But I also feel like it's sentiments like the parent comment that lead to the problem in the first place. Like you mentioned, male-dominated workplaces need to meet women in the middle, but how is that possible when they are completely unsympathetic, as the above comment seems to be?

It's not about sympathy, rather its about empathy. And listening. And mindfulness. Not skills the "ninja coder rockstar" person in their 20s, is likely to either have naturally, or to seek cultivation of. These are cultural problems, not of one "ism" or another.

Problems that are also in part born from young STEM academic over-achievers leaping from mid-degree coursework, and into the fast-paced world of startuptopia. The gap skipped over, is that one of the slower, social & personal-growth experience college life rigors our emotional skills through. That humanities coursework gives us tools of insight into the human condition, to work from. That shitty part-time jobs in food service or retail, teach us how to have a work ethic and value the work of others, through all involved parties being paid degradingly low wages, doing shit work for uncaring managers, but then relishing what little bits of wonder the crappy paychecks make possible after all the personal-growth the humbling work done for them, made subconsciously possible.

We need to all pause from the hustle and bustle of doing things as quickly as possible and with as much risk and for as much money as we each feel we can shoulder. We need to make room to prioritize mindfulness, listening, and just simple human humility. It's not all about people like us. Or, them. We are in this, together.

He who dies with the most toys, is simply dead. Not winning.

To put that quote in context of who said it, you don't sympathize because you're not a gay black woman who gets called "Halle Berry" by her white, straight, male co-workers. I believe in the Tumblr world, an animated "Check your privilege" GIF would be inserted here.

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