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Comment by pmontra | Hacker News Reader

Apparently all the ZBook HP laptops are missing. I'm writing this with one of them.

At the time I bought it I would have been interested in a query like this: screen 15", up to 32 GB RAM, 3 physical touchpad buttons, no number pad (which turned out to be very hard for 15" laptops - I didn't want a Mac), at least 512 GB internal storage, 4 cores, 1080p or better, next business day on site assistance. Price, battery life, optical drive: don't care. And of course 16:10 aspect ratio, but that would have returned an empty set.

I eventually had to compromise on the number pad even if I almost never used one and I'm not using it now that I have one. I have to shift the laptop to the right to keep the space bar right in front of me. The center of the screen is aligned with my right hand. I wonder what all those PCs designers are thinking about.

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You pretty much perfectly described a macbook pro. Any specific reason you didn't want one or just personal preference?

> 3 physical touchpad buttons

Hell, I'd jump for joy if I could find a laptop with more than one touchpad button. So tired of those clickpads. Last time I bought a laptop, I searched high and low for a decent laptop with actual, real buttons that could be pushed independent of the trackpad. I was prepared to pay nearly any sum of money for what I wanted, but ended up getting fed up, going to the other end of the spectrum, and buying a C720 Chromebook to throw Arch on. Thankfully, synaptics has come a long way and I could configure it in a way that preserves my sanity.

Best $190 I've spent in a long time.

You may be able to get a MBP with 32GB RAM now (actually I just checked and it doesn't look like you can still), but I was never able to get more than slightly-above-normal memory loaded into the MBP from the factory. As new MBPs have irreplaceable RAM modules, expanding the memory aftermarket is no longer possible (instead of just a massive pain that required ordering several special tools, like various sizes of Torx screwdriver heads, and a few hours of assembly/disassembly time).

Besides the hardware issues, there are many reasons not to buy a Mac. Macs are cool, and I'd like to have one lying around just for fun, but they're pretty expensive toys and I'm not that rich. I can, in general, only justify that kind of expense for a real computer.

> a few hours of assembly/disassembly time

for replacing the RAM on a unibody aluminum MacBook Pro? it's one screwdriver (Phillips 00), maybe 10 screws to remove from the edges of the back cover, and the RAM modules are easily accessible without any additional tools. One of the easiest RAM upgrades I've ever done... maybe 10 minutes max.

(not that it matters anymore since the retina models aren't user-upgradeable)

The 2006/2007 versions were definitely a chore to take apart and required three or four different screwdrivers. The unibody ones starting in late 2008 are much easier to work on. (At least when replacing the RAM and HDD.)

The hard drive was not user serviceable. The ram was, just behind the battery

Newer macs have the ram soldered onto the board.

I've never upgraded a unibody aluminum MBP. The ones I've worked on were from 2007.

It is nice that there was a temporary respite of upgradability before they decided to go to the furthest extreme possible and make it entirely non-upgradable.

I like my MBPro, but when refresh time comes around I'll be looking at alternatives. With Apple de-contenting them over the years, they just aren't all that "pro" any more.

Well with only two RAM slots you wouldn't. Intel CPUs can't use 16GB SODIMM RAM modules, http://www.anandtech.com/show/7742/im-intelligent-memory-to-.... So with two slots, you are limited to 16GB.

They're pretty much at the peak of price. I'm interested in a non-Apple product as well, mainly because of high prices and the mess my MBP 2007 logic board ended up being, as well as the high priced accessories (power cord that frayed and they woudn't give me a new one for free, bloated battery, every other LCD backlight going out giving the spotlight effect). I've had issues with other Apple products, and although I've loved using them, my experience getting any support from Apple has never yielded positive results (because I'm not paying for Apple care?). They replaced my first gen nano that merely had a malfunctioned hold button with an eighth generation that died in less than a year (started not turning on and heating up when I plugged it in), which I accidentally dropped before I could attempt to complain to Apple about it. There's more...but I digress...

I love using their products, but I always get this feeling that they have a lot of planned obsolescence built into them. That or they are just so cutting edge that they push the boundaries of hardware failing. Not sure, but I've spent hundreds of hours trying to debug hardware issues with their devices and there is also a lot of fud on the internet making it more difficult to do that. They never respond to any of these issues on their forums, you always just have to wait until it becomes widespread enough that they will make a service announcement.

I know that these sort of problems are not exclusive to Apple and lots of other companies have issues, I just have not been happy with the way Apple deals with them. That MacBook Pro is the only laptop I have ever owned (besides this Chromebook I'm typing on now) and I am very interested in hardware alternatives. I actually love running Mac OS, but to get away from their expensive hardware that I seem to have horrible luck with and their horrible customer support would be worth dealing without it for me. I admit, though, that I brought a lot of pain onto myself by trying to solve problems rather than just letting Apple deal with it. That's why I'm starting to get the feeling that Apple isn't for a computer hardware geek like me. I want something that is designed to last, that has survived the most brutal quality tests, and that I can maintain myself by replacing the parts. I also admit that I am still tempted to stick with the Mac OS world and get another MBP... I just want more options!!

I'd also like to escape from the Mac, but not because it's expensive. The MBP is ridiculously well made, and the high-end models ship with components that should perform well for 3 years or so. Beyond that point, I'd be looking for a generational change (e.g. CPU architecture, RAM frequency, storage interconnect, etc.) which is more about my weakness for new stuff than actual obsolescence.

Yes, that should be the reason for purchasing a new computer. But that doesn't mean that components should be failing in that amount of time. My first logic board issue happened just outside the 1 year window in 2008, but this was an Nvidia issue... So can't blame Apple right? I would say that the logic board design was horrible regardless of the issues with the chip solder, based on my experiences even with the replacement I got from the recall in 2010. I agree with you on paying for high quality, but well made should include not breaking down.

Also, these days the reasons for upgrading that you mention are diminishing. We all know the limits of Moore's law were being reached, and I was able to upgrade my MBP to 6 GB of memory (Apple's weird limitations on it causing 8 GB not to work?) and put an SSD in it for a solid computing experience sans the other issues.

You're totally right to complain about hardware failures and component deficiencies. Maybe I am just lucky in this regard.

Of course, I've just noticed that there is an option for a 1TB PCIe drive (compared to the 750GB SATA SSD I have now). If I could double my RAM to 32GB as well then I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade. As it is, I'll still probably end up going for it before too long, unless an alternative presents itself.

Personal preference: I don't like the OSX desktop environment. The global menu and the bar at the top are a no no for me. I remove them regularly from any Linux DE I use and if I can't I don't use that DE (no Unity here). I tolerated them on the very first Macs, the ones with tiny screens at the beginning of the 80s when we were always working full screen anyway, but IMHO they don't belong to 15" or larger screens.

Using OSX as a hypervisor to run Ubuntu in VMWare or VirtualBox seemed a waste of resources to me. Installing Linux as the only OS on a MBP doesn't always give optimal results, so no Mac. However MBP 15"'s 16:10 screen and the keyboard without number pad are good things (but Fn Backspace to Del, ugh). It would have been great to fit the ZBook 15 inside my old HP nc8430's case, plus the ZBook removable panel at the bottom. BTW, maybe the new keyboard has a better feeling than the old one but that was good too.

> Installing Linux as the only OS on a MBP doesn't always give optimal results, so no Mac.

I think you may find this is no longer the case... Linus himself uses a MBP nowadays

According to this interview from June www.businessinsider.com/linus-torvalds-qa-2014-6 he used a Mac Air but switched to a Sony Vaio because of the screen (no details given). Did he change again? Possible. Anyway, obviously Macs work with Linux. There were some little problems with Linux and the latest Macs when I made my research at the beginning of the year. That happened with the old ones too and were fixed along the months. I had to buy something pretty quickly in February (the old laptop was dying) so I went for a HP laptop I knew worked reasonably well with Linux despite being as new as those Macs. HP's cheap on site next business day assistance was part of the reason for buying from them again. Another reason is that I can open the back of that laptop without screwdrivers and swap RAM and discs. Apparently I can swap also the CPU but probably sockets will change before I'll need to do that.

I purchased a computer in the past year after using my trusty (overheating) HP TX2510 for more than half a decade. I was baffled as to why numpads were so popular, especially on mid-sized (15" or so) form factors. Was there a significant shift in how the 80th percentile user types, that a numpad would be an in-demand feature? I thought I was taking crazy pills.

Aside from data entry and scientific users, is there a utility-based reason why incorporating a numpad is worth offsetting the keyboard, the typical input method (along with mouse for most users)?

I've bought a handful of 17" laptops in the past and was dismayed to find all the ones I was considering lacked a numpad. Only one I've bought (15") had one. And I really want one.

It's really nice for working in computer networking, where you're often typing long strings of numbers with dots between them. The number row sucks for finding numbers and the dot is way far away.

For home or consumer use, though, I'm not sure why anyone would want a numpad bad enough to make that tradeoff.

> It's really nice for working in computer networking, where you're often typing long strings of numbers with dots between them. The number row sucks for finding numbers and the dot is way far away.

Someone really needs to setup their own DNS server...

(That, or make a programmer's numpad that goes from 0 to 'f')

> Someone really needs to setup their own DNS server...

Or outsource some accounting work...

DNS doesn't work everywhere. If I'm filling out Cisco IOS configuration, not every device has a DNS name. It's gotta be the IP address. If I'm filling in the IPAM, it's gotta be the IP address. Putting addresses into the SIEM? Gotta be the IP address. Telling someone what IP address to use for a server they haven't set up yet? There's no server, so there's no DNS name. Gotta be an IP address.

Saying "you don't need IP addresses because you've got DNS" is like saying you don't need gears because it's an automatic transmission. A mechanic would disagree with you on that. DNS is an abstraction. Why is Linux written in C when we have Javascript?

DNS is an abstraction. A very useful one at that; it limits how many IP address I end up typing. No, I do still need to write some, but I went and found the largest laptop I could get without a number pad. To each their own though.

> ... is like saying you don't need gears because it's an automatic transmission.

Just how many speeds is the transmission on a Tesla Model-S?

> ... Why is Linux written in C when we have Javascript?

Well, there's http://runtimejs.org/ but it's still in development.

I'm not really sure why you've decided that you need to attack someone just because they say they type a lot of IP addresses, but it's not very appreciated.

As a programmer, I would not buy a 15" laptop without a numpad. I use a 13" Macbook Air nowadays and the numpad is dearly missed. But yeah you are right - most people won't need them.

As a programmer surely just a 0 (for starting for loops), a 1 (for off by one errors) and 0-9 (for regexs) suffices for 99% of typing? Typing other numbers seems like it should be avoided wherever possible.

As a programmer I always wondered what a number pad could be useful for so it's interesting to know that there are programmers that put it at a good use. I even upvoted you because I find this interesting.

I usually code web applications. I think that most of my numbers go into CSS hex color strings and into my invoices. What are your use cases?

In the past I used number pads to play video games and nethack. Not much of them in the past 10 years though.

Personally I use mine a lot when typing in bug numbers. Sometimes I can copy & paste it, sometimes it's already in my field of vision, my hands are on the keyboard, and it's faster just to type it.

I was working with a client in their Finance department. There was a very strict requirement for a numpad from the whole team there.

Did they require laptops? I've worked in finance department in the past and everyone either had a desktop computer or a laptop with a docking station.

Which is why USB num pads exist... Or is an external num pad not an option?

I think the numpads exist because just about all laptop screens are 16:9 now, which forces the keyboard area to be wider (compared to a 4:3 screen, for example). Without a numpad there would be lots of "dead" space to the right and left of the keyboard, so manufacturers added a numpad to avoid the wasted space. Personally I'd rather have a 4:3 screen and no numpad, but this aspect ratio has ceased to exist.

I had similar constraints in some areas, and ended up with a Dell Latitude (so I could get the back-lit keyboard) 14" (so it wouldn't have a number pad), 1600x900 screen. I'm pretty sure most your other constraints could be configured for when buying.

The Tohsiba Tecra series (great laptops; I'm using one right now) is also missing.

As is "battery life." That's a crucial number; I get 8+ hours of real usage on the Tecra, which is awesome.

It also has a number pad, but that's a bonus for me. If you really hate them, Dell has a laptop workstation with no keypad. I have one for work, and I'm bothered by the lack.

The representation of Dell's product line does not include their business lines of laptops, neither Latitude nor Precision.

I don't see any business laptops at all for any brand (Lenovo's and HP's are missing too.)

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