Let's keep some perspective here. We are literally just talking about an init system. There are many others you can use. systemd is not taking away your freedom in any meaningful sense of the word "freedom". Debates should be about the technical merits of system not baseless accusations that they are making a power grab.
This is absolutely incorrect. We're to the point where certain software packages (GNOME comes to mind) are requiring hard dependencies on it. I was just today reading about some incompatibility that arises if your kernel is set up with no IPv6 support which is explicitly caused by systemd. (To which the response from the systemd folks was something along the lines of "You shouldn't be turning it off anyways")
(Great, now our software takes philosophical positions...)
Sure, you're "free" to use something else, in the same way that you're "free" to patch and recompile every program that touches it to stop touching it. So "free" in the FOSS sense that nobody but developers care about.
Meanwhile, in the real world, populated by end users and sysadmins, the most important people when it comes to a computing environment, the ones that all of this crap is being done for at the end of the day... not so much.
sigh
I'm annoyed that systemd is taking over for political reasons and not purely on its technical merits, and that there is no way this is not going to lead to a monoculture. There will be others, but they will be relegated to the position of marginalized, niche players that nobody outside of /g/ troll threads care about.
I'm annoyed that the rest of the world is going to have to adapt to this software, rather than the other way around.
I'm annoyed that this software is doing 5000 things where one would do.
If you think freedom is the ability to run only the code you want, the only way you're ever going to get freedom is by writing everything from scratch. Software will never be exactly the way you want it to be unless you write it yourself.
Most software depends on other software. That's just how things work. GNOME is particularly bad offender for that - it installed apache for some reason last time I used it. But GNOME also does a lot of things I don't really need it to do. Maybe someone else uses those features, and that's OK. You can switch DE if you really don't like systemd that much. But if you don't, that's not denying you your freedom - you made a decision about the benefits and drawbacks of a product, and decided to use that product.
Nobody really says how systemd only took over for political reasons, there's just random posts on forums that make claims and link to some dude's podcast. There's really no reason to believe that the systemd people are malicious.
I think systemd is the wrong choice for debian/ubuntu. But there's no reason to badmouth people about it and say hurtful things. Just use something else.
You're kidding, right?
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May...
http://linuxfr.org/nodes/86687/comments/1249943
http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01327.html
The systemd people and Lennart in particular are very open about their contempt for anything that isn't Linux + systemd and their intent to shove whatever they want down everybody's throats regardless of bugs or breakage, and blame everyone but themselves for what their shit breaks.
This can't be dressed up as anything but malicious.
Wow... we've come a long way baby! Now freely available software that you can modify as needed without interference is taking away your freedom! ;-)
> I was just today reading about some incompatibility that arises if your kernel is set up with no IPv6 support which is explicitly caused by systemd.
Actually, the problem is that if you load IPv6 support after a socket was created, there's no efficient way to make that existing socket compatible with IPv6, which of course creates a nasty little integration problem. That wasn't a choice of the systemd folks, that was a choice of how the kernel folks organized their network subsystem & modules.
Systemd runs fine on my system with no IPv6 support.
> Sure, you're "free" to use something else, in the same way that you're "free" to patch and recompile every program that touches it to stop touching it. So "free" in the FOSS sense that nobody but developers care about.
For all the complaining about NIH syndrome and absorbing other projects for political purposes, systemd actually builds on top of a lot of very well established components (dbus, udev, etc.). To the extent that software gets tightly coupled with it, it wouldn't be hard to change it so that it used those standard components without systemd... unless systemd is actually providing some unique advantages for that software that you can't live without. In which case... go out and do a better job of it!
> I'm annoyed that this software is doing 5000 things where one would do.
I know, Unix is annoying that way. ;-)
I think you'll find that it isn't nearly that difficult a problem to address. For all kinds of reasons, just like every other system design that has come before it, there will need to be accommodations made to work with other stuff. Its not like the old code just disappears overnight. You can't succeed as a new platform without a way of working with the old (and again, you've mostly been sold a bill of goods... most of systemd's architecture is the old system).
> That flexibility is a large part of why a lot of us came to Linux, and regardless of whether it's technically "freedom", losing it feels like losing freedom.
If it feels like losing freedom to you, you don't know what that is about. You're losing someone writing code the way you wanted them to. That's not losing freedom. That's getting it.
Wait, what's that? Editing compiler-generated assembly code is too hard for you? Well, that's clearly your problem, since you can't expect Microsoft to bend over backwards and write code for you the way you wanted it!
Wha?
> Wait, what's that? Editing compiler-generated assembly code is too hard for you? Well, that's clearly your problem, since you can't expect Microsoft to bend over backwards and write code for you the way you wanted it!
Umm. no. That's Microsoft bending over backwards NOT to give you the source code, as defined very clearly by the FSF and the OSD.
More importantly, in the case of Microsoft's proprietary software (they do actually have some open source stuff which isn't encumbered like this), it's literally a violation of their license agreement for you to edit that code yourself.
Am I through the looking glass or am I being trolled?
Free software means you can't restrict anyone from going ahead and making whatever changes they might want to to software, distributing it to the world, and potentially garnering mindshare in the process.
Systemd does more than just init, it has the features to replace everything from network manager to fstab. It is not just an init system it is an invasion of Linux userspace.
Don't take my word for it, just read the developers blog:
Systemd has made it impossible for me to run an up-to-date Gnome on FreeBSD. That feels a lot like taking away my freedom.
You can be stuck in a maze, in a pit or under a tree trunk. You're legally free, since no law or copyright license is saying may not get out. Yet, you're stuck and if you can't get out, you're not free at all.
When it comes to software, it is the size, complexity and complicated interdependencies that make the maze. As the system grows, an individual's practical freedom erodes. For instance, I complain about the web a lot. Even with a browser's source code and a permissive free license, there's close to nothing I can change about it in practice. It would be far too much work for me to maintain millions of lines of code and remain compatible and interoperable with a huge, fast-changing stack of technology... and the more you diverge, the harder it becomes. It's an uphill battle, and at some point you have to give up if you're not the giant. So the four software freedoms are reduced to two (or less). In practice I don't have the freedom to do what I want.
I think the FSF's stance of reducing freedom to a merely ethical issue is alarming. How would Dr. Stallman have felt if he had gotten his printer driver with a free license but so much code and complexity and dependency that it would've been impossible for him and a small team of hackers to actually port it and make it run on his system?
Of course, systemd alone is not approaching that level of complexity. Except that it's not only systemd.. the trend seems to be that all aspects of a modern OS are getting larger and more complicated. A little here, a little there, it all adds up and becomes a lot, everywhere. It's a sad trend.
There was a time when you could've picked up a book that pretty much describes all of your system's hardware at a low enough level so that you could start writing your own bootloader and OS from scratch, with the knowledge that you can interface with all the logical hardware devices. And it didn't take hundreds of thousands of lines of code. Now the amount of accumulated cruft we depend on is so large that the idea of writing your own not-a-toy OS is laughable...
Standing on the shoulders of a giant is necessary and helpful, but when you have to do too much of it, it stifles innovation and encourages monocultures.
I don't have anything against systemd per se; it doesn't represent my ideals, doesn't bring me features I want, and so I don't want to use it. If Ubuntu and Debian want to use it, they're of course free to do so. However, I am concerned that with the notion that "systemd has won", its proponents are going to assume it to be everywhere and build future software with the attitude that it is okay to depend on it -- who cares about the people who would prefer not to use it, let them suffer for disagreeing with the king!
Before the systemd rage, sysvinit might have been "the winner" on Linux in the sense that it was most widely used and supported. But we didn't have this sort of polarizing "sysvinit has won, fuck everyone and everything else" notion. Other distros with other init systems have happily coexisted all along, and these other distros haven't had to constantly fight a growing dependency on one specific init system.
Some hypervisor-based systems are moving in the opposite direction, with unikernels that reduce or eliminate the OS to run directly on virtual hardware: Cloudius OSv, HalVM, OpenMirage, Erlang on Xen.
While I am not an expert on legal language and how it can be used by lawyers, I believe RMS and the FSF at least attempt to address this in the GPL Version 2 (there is probably a similar requirement in the GPL Version 3, but it is more complicated so I'm not sure which requirement corresponds to this quote form v2):
"The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it."
Code that is so large complex that it is not practical to understand or port wasn't written by a human. Such code is probably a template or macro expansion of the real source, and the "preferred form" would be the pre-expansion source.
This may not cover all ways of obfuscating the code, but "preferred form" is trying to be as inclusive as possible.
Or it was written by thousands of people over twenty years.
GPL doesn't protect you from accumulated cruft, complexity and snarly design that makes it hard to understand let alone modify a system.
The systemd project has no control over what Gnome relies on. They independently rely on systemd because it provides functionality that makes their lives easier, and it's their right to do that. If you want "up-to-date Gnome" to work on FreeBSD, go and write some code to help make it happen.
I could write patches that reimplement the functionality that Gnome gets from systemd using lower-level functionality, in a cross-platform way. But those patches would be rejected; the Gnome project has decided to use systemd and would not want to duplicate its code. If I were to maintain my own gnome fork I would have to convince distributions to adopt it.
I could write patches that add FreeBSD support to systemd. But those patches would be rejected - again, as a policy decision, systemd doesn't want to support FreeBSD. Thankfully in this case there is a fork, uselessd, but again, we need to convince distributions to adopt it or it's meaningless.
The claim that Gnome "independently" relies on systemd is specious; there was a lot of lobbying and politics from the systemd side. My only practical option is to counter at the same level, and lobby Gnome (and linux distributions) to make the political decision to move away from systemd.
So, Red Hat project GNOME relies on Red Hat project systemd, and Red Hat employees won't allow systemd to be portable to competing platforms. Convenient.
You can of course make the case that the interfaces provided by systemd are substandard, but so long as you don't have an alternative to offer, it's just talk.
As far as I know, Gnome does currently have fallbacks (with reduced functionality) on non-systemd systems, so it's not the case that they just ignore things. However, I perfectly understand why they would not bother with duplicating code just to support systems that aren't good enough.
EDIT: I'm apparently not able to respond to the reply below me for whatever reason, but... It's been said many times that making systemd portable makes no sense, which is why it provides interfaces. And regarding the interfaces, which part of them, exactly, are not stable? There's a very reasonable interface stability promise, which to my knowledge has held, so far.
> You can of course make the case that the interfaces provided by systemd are substandard, but so long as you don't have an alternative to offer, it's just talk.
The problem isn't that the interfaces are particularly bad, it's that they're not standardized. If systemd would offer standardized interfaces that let me offer a compatible alternative that would be fine. But they don't. Trying to remain compatible with software that will make no effort to provide compatibility from its side is a mug's game.
"That is simply not true. Porting systemd to other kernel is not feasible. We just use too many Linux-specific interfaces. For a few one might find replacements on other kernels, some features one might want to turn off, but for most this is nor really possible. Here's a small, very incomprehensive list: cgroups, fanotify, umount2(), /proc/self/mountinfo (including notification), /dev/swaps (same), udev, netlink, the structure of /sys, /proc/$PID/comm, /proc/$PID/cmdline, /proc/$PID/loginuid, /proc/$PID/stat, /proc/$PID/session, /proc/$PID/exe, /proc/$PID/fd, tmpfs, devtmpfs, capabilities, namespaces of all kinds, various prctl()s, numerous ioctls, the mount() system call and its semantics, selinux, audit, inotify, statfs, O_DIRECTORY, O_NOATIME, /proc/$PID/root, waitid(), SCM_CREDENTIALS, SCM_RIGHTS, mkostemp(), /dev/input, ..."
It's not just cgroups.
"uselessd is planned to work as a primitive stage 2 init (process manager) on FreeBSD. Stage 1 is inherently unportable requires a total overhaul in regards to low-level system logic (with systemd assuming lots of mount points and virtual file systems that aren’t present, is designed with an initramfs in mind and many other things). Stage 3 can always be achieved by having a sloppy shim around the standard tools like shutdown, halt, poweroff, etc.
So far, uselessd compiles on BSD libc with a kiloton of warnings, with lots of gaps and comments in the code, and macros/substitutions in other places. All in all, it is an eldritch abomination. A slightly patched version of Canonical’s systemd-shim is provided and works well enough to emulate the org.freedesktop.systemd1 D-Bus interface. Some of the binaries provide diagnostic information, but at present we are trying to find ways to bring up the Manager interface in the whole buggy affair, in order for systemctl to send method calls. Nonetheless, you are absolutely welcome and encouraged to play around with it in its present state, and we hope to get somewhere eventually."
Considering GNOME is part of the new school design philosophy in general and largely developed by Red Hat employees, it's inevitable that it would have happened anyway, but the systemd developers were directly complicit in speeding it up.
> systemd is Linux-only. That means if we still care for those non-Linux > platforms replacements have to be written. In case of the timezone/time/locale/hostname mechanisms this should be relatively easy > as we kept the D-Bus interface very much independent from systemd, and > they are easy to reimplement. Also, just leaving out support for this on those archs should be workable too. The hostname interface is documented > in a lot of detail here: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/hostnamed -- we plan to > offer similar documentation for the other mechanisms.
I'm really not seeing any foul play anywhere; RH tried Upstart (they even used it in RHEL6), found it lacking, and out of that came systemd.
The thing is, the systemd project is far more ambitious (which is good) and not content with just providing an init system. I personally don't see anything wrong with that (a well-integrated core userland for all Linux distros? Yes please), but you obviously do.
I think your project is ultimately not going to gain much traction it's simply ignoring most of the goals of the systemd project. It might have side-effects on how systemd develops though, but I can't really say.
It seems to me that Lennart's personal goal is to make the perfect OS as he visualizes it. He's doing work to make it happen, and he's gaining support because the code is useful to other people. If people outside of Linux circles want to get involved in standardizing core DBUS interfaces (which they should, because pretty much everyone seems to use DBUS) and things like daemon startup notification, they should get involved with the systemd project and discuss the interfaces, not just tell people not to use them... That ship has already sailed. Systemd is rapidly becoming the de facto standard, and that progress is not suddenly going to stop because minorities complain too loudly. :)
It sounds to me like Gnome is the reason why you can't run Gnome without systemd, and that you should probably direct your complaints against them.
I understand your good motivations but just saying "it will be ok" doesn't make the problem go away. Yes I can write my own init system, that's good. Can I uninstall systemd from most system that install and depend on it by default. Write my own distro? You can't just easily plug and play it.
It is a big like the kernel. Just swapping out Linux kernel with a FreeBSD one doesn't quite work.
> system not baseless accusations that they are making a power grab.
With that I agree. Maybe to get the conversation back on track is to present a few valid technical points in response. Or just ignore it. Saying "hold up people, no fighting please" doesn't work as well in such forums.
Well, actually that's the heart of the problem right there. Systemd mangles and complects things. You can replace the kernel (see Debian/kfreebsd and to a lesser extent Illumos). Or you can make a "distro" like cygwin/mingw et al for windows and homebrew for os x. Because there are some more or less well defined interfaces between userland and kernel space. Not just "shit that systemd does that makes sense on recent linux kernels" (afaik there's no plans for supporting something like linux 2.4 on small embedded systems for example).