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Comment by falsestprophet | Hacker News Reader

"Daesh" is short for "al-Dawla al-Islamiya fi al-Iraq wa al-Sham", which means Islamic State(or Nation) of Iraq and al-Sham (the Levant or Syria)... so basically ISIS. [1]

So then, the point of view here is that you're not referring to it as a state when you use words from a non-Western European language?

I think it would be better to spin it as an armed group serving it's dictatorial leader, the "Caliph" Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, by calling it something like "Al-Baghdadi's Army."

Much better to leave Islam, Iraq and Syria out of it.

Then you have at least one clear, achievable goal: http://imgur.com/UcIhJmU

[1] http://pietervanostaeyen.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/on-the-ori...

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Arabic by nature doesn't have many abbreviations like other languages because of it's lack of vowels, so abbreviations end up being a set a consonants that are hard to pronounce and don't sound "correct", so we don't use them often. The name "Daesh" is an exception, it's an abbreviation (although one letter gets changed a little bit) and it does sound "correct" but although it does contain the words Islamic and state, it doesn't have for an Arabic speaker like me the same effect as ISIS have for an English speaker

I think the point is, as the article points out, moreso that the group hates the name:

"The Associated Press recently reported that the group were threatening to cut cut out the tongues of anyone who used the phrase publicly, and AFP have noted that the term "Daeshi" has been used a derogatory term in some parts of the Middle East. Some analysts have suggested that the dislike of the term comes from its similarity to another Arabic word, دعس, or Das. That word means to trample down or crush."

According to the Foreign Minister of the French Republic Laurent Fabius their point is

“This is a terrorist group and not a state," Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius told reporters last week, according to France 24. "I do not recommend using the term Islamic State..."

My point is that they are still, basically, calling it the Islamic State, but just in Arabic.

I counter that that simply doesn't matter.

Consider: if (1) ISIS doesn't like it, (2) Arab speakers use it derogatorily, and non-Arab-speakers either (3) don't know the etymology, or (4) understand the derogatory intent, I think Daesh achieves the goal of linguistically delegitimizing ISIS as a "state".

I'm sure they'd hate to be called "The Coalition of Sissy Bomb-bait Cowards", but that doesn't mean we should call them that.

The public is already aware of who "ISIS" is, and what they do. I see no reason to introduce confusion (particularly with a word whose pronunciation isn't even clear to all native English speakers (such as myself)).

Well, seeing as this is the French who are using the term, I don't think you have to worry about pronouncing it.

Every argument in favor of the new term, that I have heard at least, is language agnostic. They apply in English just as well as they apply in French. I think it is therefore fair for me to offer my opinion on its use by English speaking media.

And yeah, my insincere proposal got somewhat neutered by a few iterations of making it less offensive to the innocent. I think my point came across though.

Your "point" is a straw-man.

(Really, that name is ridiculous. "Daesh" is specifically chosen because it's already used. I'm not arguing to call them something novel and ridiculous.)

1) One of the arguments in favour of using that term is that it offends ISIS. It's not a strawman if people actually are making that argument. I am arguing against that particular argument.

2) Daesh is not already used in English. I have absolutely no objection to it's use in other languages; that does not effect me in the slightest so I could not care in the slightest.

"The public is already aware of who "ISIS" is, and what they do."

The majority of people do, yes. However, you have to consider how powerful language is. Calling something by it's literal, and true meaning strips it of a lot of power to maneuver itself and what it means/stands for.

Apparently part of the reason they hate it is that it sounds like complete gibberish to arabic speakers and the abbreviation is usually said in a very derogatory tone of voice.

Are they not doing all the things they're doing for Islam's sake (misguided or not)?

Yeah, I would take their word for it that they are Muslims.

But in addition to being Muslims and generally really bad dudes, the principal thing they are doing is installing Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the leader of a caliphate/country.

Al-Qaeda will publicly try to justify their actions using religious beliefs, ISIS does not try nearly as hard. I do not know if other Muslims consider ISIS "Takfir"[0] though.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jama%27at_al-Muslimin ...in the Muslim world Takfir is "generally used as a derogatory description for extremists that kill Muslims without sufficient religious justification".

The way I see it is that journalists (directed by the French government in this case) like to use foreign terms to make the "enemy" more scary and different. We hear a lot about "jihad", "sharia", "burka", "fatwa" and now "daesh".

On a slightly offtopic note, thanks for revealing the name in the (current) top comment so I don't need to click through the article just to get that. I'm almost certain that the lack of the new name in the title is completely intentional to gain more clicks.

Yeah, I'm sure none of us would actually bother to read the article if the name was in the title.

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