Ask HN: Quit my job. Company coming after me

IANAL, and this is my 2 cents. Get a good labor lawyer.

1. Did your sign-on bonus state that you had to stay a certain time to keep it. If not, don't give it back. They are hostile (and have already taken hostile actions) and haven't earned consideration. Any payment from you should come with them signing an onerous agreement.

2. If you have to give it back by contractual obligation, then pay the whole amount. You get the tax that was withheld by the IRS when you file. If cash is an issue, tell them you'll send the rest when it's refunded.

3. If they do anything to hurt you, you will be able to sue them for damages. Don't retaliate by naming/shaming/defaming them. Collect as much evidence as possible about whatever they decide to do and just have a lawyer write a letter. Say little to nothing publicly.

4. They are within their rights not to give you a good recommendation. You should not refer anyone to them.

5. I strongly doubt anyone will care what they have to say about you.

6. CA has employee-friendly non-compete. You can't use their secret information, but you can work for a competitor.

7. Quitting after receiving a performance bonus is so commonplace that it's boring. The entire NYC financial and legal industry basically plans their annual personnel strategy around it.

To address point 7., My performance "award" was just an "employee of the month" style photo on the HR wall and a gift card for a decent dinner (not a performance bonus).

That alone should be enough to leave :).

Agree with #1 completely. As for everything else, I'm not sure you have much to be worried about until something actually happens.

>They are within their rights not to give you a good recommendation.

In California, when it comes to past employee recommendations, employers are protected if a statements are based on "credible evidence and made without malice." So yes they can give a bad recommendation but if it's bad just because they're upset it could be considered defamation.

I'm only saying they don't have to give a good recommendation. If you send someone to a former boss, and they are neutral, it will be read as a bad recommendation.

The boilerplate standard signing bonus is recoupable if the employee leaves within a year. You're right that he should make sure that's the case for his own bonus, but it's more likely than not that he has to return it.

Yes. That was part of the contract. I do have to return it if I quit within a year

Was it prorated? All of the signing bonuses I have received have been.

Unfortunately no. Lesson Learned there.

Get a labour lawyer, and get them on retainer. You may not need it, but that's fine. Lawyers hold funds in trust - not that anything can happen, but having them on retainer means that should you be in some sort of sticky situation, you can continue using said lawyer, as they're already on retainer.

Then - stop.

Don't do anything, anything, anything, without a discussion with said lawyer. Follow everything that lawyer says to a T - full stop. The only opinion that matters is the labour lawyer, who will undoubtedly base things on your contract, and any e-mails you exchanged prior to signing said contract.

Phone calls / voice conversations / things that aren't written down are too much of a he said/she said. Don't offer any money, don't so much as have a conversation with the company. For the time being, don't see your old co-workers, don't exchange email, just don't do anything.

tl;dr - Lawyer up

You might give Scott a call -- http://www.gatteylaw.com/

You don't even (necessarily) need to pay anything. Good lawyers will often give you a free consultation to discuss your case. Take them up on it.

Do exactly what this person says. It's the smartest move here.

Contd.. 4. Lesson learned: The conversation with HR didn't turn out the way I expected. Although I was asked by the HR manager to turn in my resignation, I was unsettled enough by the order to leave that I forgot to give my resignation in writing. I was actually willing to do stay around a even a month for them until they hired a replacement and I had mentioned that to my manager. Not in writing though. Just a note for others. This gave them enough ammo to call a few recruiters and tell them that I quit without even a 2 week notice (Recruiters being who they are immediately called me and told me about other companies that are hiring). Also, my leaving did make life easier for the other developers for a little while.

5. Stay tuned! Not sure what will come out of this, but don't want to go bankrupt or spend a considerable amount of time and resources in court for sure. I'd consider it a win if I can just write a check for the sign-on bonus minus the tax deduction and both parties forget about it. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case.

This gave them enough ammo to call a few recruiters and tell them that I quit without even a 2 week notice

Unless you have an employment contract that said otherwise your employment is "at-will", meaning you can be fired at any time and, in return, you can walk away at any time.

Two weeks is a common courtesy but is not required of anyone. Given the hostile environment, it probably would not have been a productive time anyway. And, obviously, the recruiters could care less.

True. Employment was "at will".

If they did call people and tell them you quit without notice, they are likely opening themselves up to damages. If your story is accurate, then they lied if they said you quit without notice, as they asked you to resign that day. If they are telling lies about you ; and you are damaged, they are likely liable for that. Talk to an employment attorney.

Right. This would certainly seem to be extremely close to the textbook definition of tortious interference (though it may require you to already in negotiations), whereby a occurs when a person intentionally damages the plaintiff's contractual or other business relationships. This tort is broadly divided into two categories, one specific to contractual relationships (irrespective of whether they involve business), and the other specific to business relationships or activities (irrespective of whether they involve a contract).

From what you are saying, it sounds like this company would be best suited to get their HR shit straight, or they will find themselves in a world of hurt down the road. HR Lady's mention that "her mental state was transitioning towards anger" can be described as offensive conduct, and the EEOC would be all over that. Also, The Department of Labor doesn't take too kindly to stuff like this. Do find an Employment/Labor Law Attorney and tell them exactly what you wrote above.

Thanks! That particular comment seemed really out of line. I just took a deep breath and left the room.

You did the right thing. Sadly, the quality of HR professionals has been on the decline for some time now, because kids are coming out of college with HR degrees that are completely detached from reality (wait, this sounds like a lot of college degrees :) ). They don't realize how much litigation is involved and just how much an HR mistake can harm a business.

These things happen and it sounds like the company is being jerks about it. Your offer letter will cover the conditions under which you have to return the signing bonus. It may or may not be pro-rated but usually if you quit you do have to give it back. And yes, you have to return the whole amount, when you file your tax return you will get back the withheld taxes in your refund as the bonus will no longer be part of your compensation on your W2.

The whole black listing / smearing thing is mostly just talk. Given that they are that smarmy, others will know that about them as well. Having the 'award' will certainly put the question of who has the sour grapes out there. And hey it has given you some manager types you don't want to work for again. It is always an option of the company to walk you out the door once you decide to move on, that is more common when the company is worried about how your leaving will impact others, but I know of at least one company where it is standard policy.

The only risk of talking to a lawyer here is that they will get all excited and try to get you to take some action. Generally you have to ask, what is it you want? To complain? put a comment up on Glassdoor and move on. A lot cheaper than paying an attorney.

1. I usually advise people to talk to a lawyer, but in your situation, nothing has happened yet. The company hasn't actually done anything that should concern you.

2. Follow the letter of whatever deal you had for your sign-on bonus. If your contract says you have to return it, do so. If it says it is pro-rated, do so. Don't invent new rules. If the contract doesn't say anything about returning it, don't.

3. Just make sure that your conduct is above reproach. Don't give them any excuse for going after you for any reason. Act professional, leave, you don't owe them anything.

r.e. point 1 - apparently the company has (proactively?) contacted recruiters to advise them that this person is unreliable, i.e. quit without notice (regardless of the fact that even if so, they were perfectly within their rights to do so).

> r.e. point 1 - apparently the company has (proactively?) contacted recruiters to advise them that this person is unreliable, i.e. quit without notice (regardless of the fact that even if so, they were perfectly within their rights to do so).

Which, given that the OP had provided notice to your manager, and left immediately only because directed to by the company's HR manager, would seem to be damaging information concerning the OP's usual employment that was false and that the company knew, or reasonably should have known, was false -- i.e., quite likely actionable slander.

So, good reason to talk to a lawyer, especially if the OP believes the company's activities are likely to escalate if not constrained.

1) You need to talk to a lawyer (don't have any Bay Area references, sorry)

2) Don't pay them until you talk to a lawyer.

3) At-will is at-will and businesses are the ones who pushed for this concept, so don't lose any sleep over exercising your right to quit at-will (though I do think it is good professional behavior to give 2 weeks notice, especially if it will help wrap up any loose ends). The timing will always be unfortunate if the company sees you as a high-value contributing employee.

Do you mind sharing a little about the nature of things that drove you to quit? What got the HR lady and VP-A and VP-B so angry? Who was at fault? Just trying to understand the situation a bit.

Get off the internet and talk to an attorney.

Here's something very specific for the lawyer you'll be retaining to do: contact the company's lawyer and point out how stupid they're being, so the latter will tell them how very foolish they're being, but that's OK, he'll just make more money if they don't stop and get sued....

Oh no, VP A, B, and HR lady are mad. How do they expect to "make life difficult" for you? Realistically, there is not much they can do. I wouldn't worry about it unless an actual action is taken.

As for the bonus? Unless you are contractually bound to return it, tell them the money's spent and to write it off.

You said you were asked to return your sign on bonus. I'd like you to give me $15,000 please.

I have to ask... Why are they so angry about you leaving?

Startups aren't meant to let one spend time with his family.

It's also quite common that first 4-12 months in a new company (startup or not) are much more demanding than ongoing work (due to ramp up).

I totally agree. My realization was that I'd rather spend the non-family time on my own ideas. I've edited my post so the focus stays on the questions I've asked.

RE your questions there's one thing I know: non-compete are not enforceable in California. Relax and join a different medical startup if you want.

(I am not a lawyer, so get one to confirm, or get listen to another 10 random folks :))

Unsure about remaining questions: 1) can you do anything to prevent your defamation among recruiters and/or make them pay for it, 2) sign-in bonus tax issues.

But my point was that as far as ethical and personal issues go, I am not on your side. If I was your employer I'd be angry too :)

RE spending time on your own ideas, I think the problem is not strictly time. It's energy. I spend only 40-45 hours a week at work but it's intensive focused time that leaves leave me with barely 15 hours/week of high energy focused time on all of the rest: my hobbies and meaningful time with family combined. In startups there's expectation that you give all of it, not just 40-45 hours.

"non-compete are not enforceable in California. Relax and join a different medical startup if you want."

The way I read the OP (though this may be incorrect) wasn't so much that they were threatening to enforce a non-compete, but rather that they intended to blackball him within the local industry.

Yes the worry is not the non-compete. The med device industry is pretty small within the US. It was the threat that bothered me more.

> In startups there's expectation that you give all of it, not just 40-45 hours.

Funny how "living the dream" requires subjugating one's own autonomy.

I would like to correct the above into "In some companies, startup or not, there's expectation that..." I worked for four years in a startup environment and normal workweek was always sufficient. Of course, I made sure this was the situation before I signed up. Making sure the company culture fits your philosophy of life before signing up is always good (if the economic situation is such that there are plausible alternatives). Becoming hired is not a cost free transaction but incurs severe opportunity costs for the near future. Not getting hired can incur acute fiscal costs on the other. But I would claim the nature of ones employment is not about subjugating ones autonomy unless the employee lets it. Of course, debt and mortgage balances the odds in the favor of the employer more often than not.

Please, telling bright young people that working ones ass of for the benefit of the employer is the only path to a good life is a severe deficit of clear thinking. Some people enjoy doing lots of work for the work's sake and it's a totally fine way to live ones life - but it's not the only good and admirable way available. I'm not saying any other way is better, just that there are usually options available to clever people how to organize ones life.

As an employee, I have an expectation that my standard salary pays for roughly 40-45 hours a week of work. If these startups are looking to hire and expecting to have all of my free time and energy, they better be giving me something for it.

> they better be giving me something for it.

Didn't anyone tell you? Free potato chips!

I don't think joining a startup is a very economical decision as opposed to joining a big company. Startups usually give stock options enough for some equivalent of early retirement after 5 years if there's a successful exit, but the chance is low. Last time I tried to do calc on expected income, corporations were winning.

From my friends I know only one person who went to startup with the idea to (hopefully) make good money after careful risk/reward evaluation. Most people go to a startup for non-material reasons - like do more things with your own hands, more lively/friendly environment, different learning opportunities, flexbility to change roles, etc, etc.

RE working weeks. I haven't worked in a startup myself, but friends told me that generally there's an expectation of hardwork and long hours.

The important part - an expectation of long hours doesn't mean they will necessarily fire someone who works 8 hours per day, but it means you'll likely get medium rewards and medium respect from peers if you used to be top performer in a larger company. Which may be fine.

The fact that the author quit due to long hours after he got performance award indicates a potential for flexibility: e.g. maybe he could work less, say no to some requests or fail on some deadlines, and not get award, but still be good enough to not get fired and get interesting projects.