Hacker News Reader

Comment by captainmuon | Hacker News Reader

It's nice to see BitTorrent used for file transfers (user to user). Strange that it is still hard to get files from A to B. You can put them on a webserver if you have one, or use dropbox, but the download can only start when the upload is finished. I usually use scp for this, but it only works when one side is not firewalled, and isn't feasible for non-technical people. This one could be really useful.

It's sad that BitTorrent is otherwise basically dead (as a way to obtain content). Where I live (Germany) you often get immediately subpoenaed (or the German equiv.) if you use it to download something.

View on HN

> Where I live (Germany) you often get immediately subpoenaed (or the German equiv.) if you use it to download something.

That's absolutely not true. You can use BitTorrent as much as you like, there is absolutely no danger in doing so. If you commit copyright violations however, you might get caught regardless of how you did it.

Well, I thought it was extremely obvious that BitTorrent by itself is perfectly legal, and that it is of course not banned in Germany.

Of course you only get an "Abmahnung" if you use it for copyright violations. But that is by far the largest use case. It can hardly be ignored that most people, especially "non-technical" ones, associate BitTorrent only with illegally downloading media.

What I wanted to say, is that now - as opposed to a few years ago - the probability of getting into trouble when downloading popular episodes via bittorrent has approached ~1.

As I said on another comment to you, you better include "public" somehow in your rhetoric. The probability of getting into trouble when downloading popular episodes via private bittorrent trackers or on I2P is ~0, not that I would do or advocate such thing.

Well, I wouldn't trust private trackers too much, because if I can get access to such a tracker, then the piracy hunters can as well (with private I assume you don't mean really private between friends, but rather trackers you have to register for, or get invited to). I can't comment on I2P because I haven't tried it, I didn't know that it works with decent speed.

My point was basically, the old approach of Joe Average Pirate of 1) installing µTorrent and 2) googling for "Big Bang Theory S05E01 torrent" is as good as dead.

You're right I was a bit sloppy, but that's moot now since I can't edit my post anymore and will probably continue to be downvoted until the text is completely invisible :-(

Out of interest, could a network provider actually tell the difference between say the data to update warcraft (which at least used to use a torrent style download), and the data through uTorrent of a textbook, and so on.

You need deep packet inspection [0] of the traffic. You'll probably need in addition some signature and algorithm to distinguish between different type of content, but this is probably doable for unencrypted content.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_packet_inspection

It's easy for the hollywood copyright holders to just load the .torrent/magnet link into a bittorrent client and look at the list of peers.

Now of course, you can make it difficult to join the torrents - for example, by using private trackers - but that makes it as difficult for me as for the hollywood copyright holders.

Then just IP address -> Court order -> ISP -> Your home address and send the threatening letter.

> It's sad that BitTorrent is otherwise basically dead (as a way to obtain content). Where I live (Germany) you often get immediately subpoenaed (or the German equiv.) if you use it to download something.

That's just plain wrong. Maybe if you are downloading the latest hollywood flick from TPB you'll get a "Abmahnung" but that's about it. It's nowhere near "dead". If you are not using one of the big public trackers you won't have a problem. There are also free templates to fight these letters.

do they attack you for using btsync between your own PCs?

Of course not, nobody's attacking anyone for using a protocol. The only group targeted are people downloading certain movies or music where the company owning the content instructed another company to grab the peerlist of said torrent (in this case) and to get the info on the peers so they can send them scary letters extorting money.

I live in Germany but this is the first time I hear about this.

The only rule might be: do not down load content ( music) from Sony/BMG because they actively monitor the biggest torrent sites/downloads and might get a letter from their lawyer ( which you can ignore basically).

Movies and music from other labels are relatively safe. I don't download anymore since with 7 euro montly ( two beers) I have Google all access, while spotify is free from mobile.

Wow, I've never heard of this before. I am using torrent as we speak.

I have to say, there's only a problem while illegally downloading stuff (tv shows, films, ...) of course. BitTorrent itself is perfectly legal, and I've seriously used it many times to download Linux ISOs and similar. Also technically, it is the uploading that bittorrent does that is illegal.

The other day I made the mistake of downloading one of the last How I Met Your Mother episodes via torrent (the first time in years). Two weeks later I had a nice invoice over several hundred Euros in my mailbox :-(, and I know a couple other people to whom happened the same. That's why I wouldn't touch Popcorn Time with a ten feet pole.

You probably used a public torrent which means that you advertised the fact that you downloaded it publically to the world.

Can you scan that letter and post it? That's interesting reading (of course you should redact all the details about your identity).

I don't have a scanner ready, but it was a pretty standard letter. If you search for "Abmahnung Waldorf Frommer" you should find some cover letters (in German). Waldorf Frommer is one law firm that is well known for sending those letters.

It was basically one page explaining that one violated copyright, giving the file name, the date, and the IP address; then a few pages detailing the appropriate laws, explaining how utterly bad piracy is, and telling you how much trouble you are in. Then there was an invoice for a one time "license" for the episode, and the legal fees which were more than the license. Following that, there was a kind of contract you had to sign, agreeing to accept the license, and in case of repeat violation, agree to pay a much higher fee. If I remember correctly, there even was a filled out wire-transfer form you just had to sign and bring to the bank in the end.

If you didn't accept their conditions, and refuse to sign, then they would go to court, which is extremely risky. You might get exonerated, or you might have to pay a lot more, so in the end I just payed the few hundred euros.

Given that the reason I pirated in the first place was that I'm a student and currently can't really afford to buy the media, its especially frustrating...

Wow. I would have never ever paid.

But I can see why such a strategy would work on their part.

I wonder how many of those letters they send out and how many people stand up to them in court and what the outcome is of those cases.

What would you have done (in by that, I mean "what do you advise normal people who aren't well-known, don't have a good knowledge of technology, and don't have a ton of money, to do")?

I would have definitely gone to court arguing that my IP address and me are not the same entity.

On top of that I would have used the (firm) German privacy laws to use the discovery process to figure out if they had obtained my (private!) name, address etc in a legal way.

To me this seems like a racket and I highly doubt that the case would have ever gone to court.

I would expect an outcome like this:

https://torrentfreak.com/evidence-against-bittorrent-users-s...

And without a ton of money the German state would likely appoint a legal representative.

great thanks!

Yeah, the recommendation of many lawyers is not to pay or sign. Rather, you get a lawyer, and sign a "modified" cease-and-desist letter in which you 1) admit to no guilt and 2) don't agree to pay anything. By law, you have to react to their letter in some way. If you don't pay, there is a 50/50 chance that they'll let it be, or that they'll take it to court. I'm not really sure how your chances are in court.

Recently, someone argued that their router had a known vulnerability, and the rights holders couldn't prove that their WiFi was not hacked, and that they downloaded the files themselves, so they were acquitted. (http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Filesharing-Klage-weg...)

In my case, there were two factors that made me pay: First, they were in the right. As annoying as it might be, and whatever my positions on "intellectual property" are, it's hard to argue against that. Secondly, the cable connection belonged to a friend, and I didn't want to expose that person to a couple years of legal uncertainty.

If a cease-and-desist letter is unjustified, or in a grey area, I would definitely stand up against it, because I believe I'd have a good chance in court.

> Secondly, the cable connection belonged to a friend

Sounds like the perfect legal defense that an IP address does not identify you.

you might be interested in torrent-webstorage services such as put.io then.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com