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Comment by ohquu | Hacker News Reader

There was a lot of reassurance that people "not wanting to date [race]" are not racist. Can someone explain to me where the line for racism lies?

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I think that was the writer struggling to reconcile the fact that personal sexual preferences are considered sacrosanct in modern liberal culture (as long as those preferences don't harm anyone), and yet using "race" (which doesn't exist, remember) as a component in any decision is considered immoral.

I don't think the problem is that using "race" as a component in any decision is considered immoral. The problem is that the net effect of all those independent "preferences", which we know are shaped by society, hurts actual people.

We can't just say "be attracted to different people", because people like what they like, but it is certainly valuable to know how our preferences are likely to be biased. The least we can do is acknowledge the aggregate hurt our individual preferences may contribute to.

> The problem is that the net effect of all those independent "preferences", which we know are shaped by society, hurts actual people.

I don't think you want to go down this route, though. Are short men hurt by the fact that women are typically less attracted to them? If so, what remedy would you propose?

Throwing some anecdote into the ring - I grew up in a primarily white, rural area (in Australia). I went to a university in the city, which has a large Asian contingent (in fact the city as a whole is a lot more multicultural).

During my time there I noticed a drastic change in both the frequency and intensity of my attraction towards Asian women (though it was never particularly high in general). In particular, I noticed a significant (positive) change after spending significant in the direct company of Asian women (and men).

My belief for why this was the case has always been in-line with the authors statement

"I think that’s no coincidence. Beauty is a cultural idea as much as a physical one, and the standard is of course set by the dominant culture."

I had never had much of a chance to interact with Asians growing up, besides the local chinese restaurant and a few kids in my class. At university it felt like I had to overcome the 'newness' of these people I was meeting before I might be attracted to them.

I'm sure studies have tried to approach this idea; it seems like the same idea could apply to any minority that are 'different' enough from everyone else, even if there is no overt racism in play.

Perhaps it has some correlation with the own-race bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-race_effect.

On a personal level it is probably in most cases (all but the most extreme) very hard to disentangle racism from preference. It’s also not necessarily conscious or intentionally malicious, either. That doesn’t stop it from being racist, though.

I think everyone agrees that not dating someone based on their race can be consciously racist. (“I’m not dating xyz people because they are all so dumb!”) The belief that conscious racist believes can influence who someone finds attractive and who not surely isn’t very controversial.

Is it then too much of a leap of faith to believe that our own image of what’s attractive and what’s not can also be less consciously influenced by the society we grow up in or the media depictions of different people we see – and that that society and those depictions can and often are racist?

For one, I don't think preference has any bearing on this. By most accepted definitions, racism is the belief that one or more race is inherently better or worse in some regard.

So, unless you say "white women are inherently better at attracting me on dating sites" I'm not sure how it could be shoehorned into racism.

Right. But when you say

> racism is the belief that one or more race is inherently better or worse in some regard

does this mean that a belief is only racist if it is one that has been consciously considered? What about unconscious/subconscious thought (e.g., preference)? It seems difficult to completely reconcile human instinct with true egalitarianism.

Many people say yes it is racist:

  http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/04/okcupid_and_race_is_it_racist_to_date_only_people_of_your_own_race.html
  http://www.racialicious.com/2009/10/09/of-okcupid-and-denials-of-racism/
  http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/11/racial-preferences-are-racist/
  http://www.rolereboot.org/sex-and-relationships/details/2013-11-if-you-wont-date-people-of-a-certain-race-youre-raci

In some cases it is only yes if you are white.

Regarding that Slate article:

> In a somewhat similar vein, one of OkCupid’s questions reads as follows: “Would you strongly prefer to go out with someone of your own skin color/racial background?” I was struck by the not inconsiderable number of people who answered “yes”—including some people I know “in real life,” many of whom are hilariously self-righteous about their enlightened political views.

I don't see why that's surprising. Marriage stats in the U.S. still show that people (even minorities) generally marry those of the same race. Is it really surprising that people have a higher preference to connect with those with a similar culture and appearance?

All four of those articles go out of their way not to discuss any particular races at all, in the context of dating. Of the four, I think the one on everydayfeminism.com probably gets it the best: it's okay to have preferences, same as you might for hair or eye color or height or whatever else, but depending on the strictness of your adherence to your "rule" - yes it's racist.

So the articles you've linked are fine, IMO.

However I do get the sense and agree with you, that for a great many people it's only racist if you're white, and that for other ethnicities racially-exclusionary dating is fine. Mainly I think that's because most people haven't given it much thought.

then if you're not a racist in dating, you're still probably a racist in something else in terms of the degree they're thinking.

> In some cases it is only yes if you are white.

The reason that this can be true and decidedly not wrong is because of white privilege[0].

0: http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/55307010922/what-is-whit...

By most accepted definitions, racism is the belief that one or more race is inherently better or worse in some regard.

What if that belief were true? Would it still be racist?

Concretely (since a reply brings up biology): I believe African women are "better" (taller, have larger asses, and less body hair) than White/Asian women. I believe these differences are primarily biological, likely genetic, in origin.

I do discriminate on the basis of traits correlated with race - I am more attracted to tall, dark women with larger asses. I've dated more women from Africa in the past 6 months than from any other continent.

Am I racist?

(Note: I'm not African, nor will I be offended if you call me racist, so don't hold back. I'm simply attempting to understand the viewpoint expressed.)

Only if you hold it to be due to biological differences rather than cultural.

Edit: You must also use it as a justification for discrimination.

No (at least based on this one hypothetical), unless you use that to justify institutionalised discrimination such as trying to prevent non black women from using dating websites because their asses are too small.

No, it's not racist.

But it doesn't matter. What does it matter to a 4'11" black woman that on average, black women are taller than women of other races? What does it matter to you? Unless you love a woman with a large ass and you have to pick a random woman out of a hat filled with the names of women from only one race, then your best chance might be to select from the hat for black women.

I think its racist. If you hold the belief for the group it means it can subconciously affect your beliefs about the individual in the group. i.e., prejudice.

To clarify, you believe I'm subconsciously believing certain individual black women are taller than they are in reality?

If I could persuade you that I were accurately measuring every woman's height (perhaps by making observations like "she's up to my shoulder" or "she's up to my jaw"), would you be convinced I am not racist?

Are you racist if you aren't physically attracted to someone? I hope not.

I don't know. That's kind of what I'm asking. Is preference racist? Or are we scared to affirm that it might be?

I doubt it's racist. And who cares anyway. If someone doesn't "prefer" you, then what have you lost, and why would you want to be with them? There are plenty of other people.

You're attracted to some people, not to others, and one day you'll die. Be happy in the meantime.

Would you have said this to a black person in the 50s as comfort for their plight?

Would I have said something like that in the context of not many white people wanting to date them? Probably.

Would I have said something like that in the context of lynching? Hell no.

Are they the same thing? I don't think so, but it's definitely worth thinking about.

Am I racist because I prefer redheads but not blond? It's a mystery what sparks things in people. Am I homophobic because I only date women? I don't think so. But that's probably worth thinking about too.

Is a dating service fundamentally racist or sexist by enabling people to shop for or against people of a certain makeup, treating people like items on a menu? I don't think so, and I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge and be comfortable with attraction.

> "I doubt it's racist. And who cares anyway. If someone doesn't "prefer" you, then what have you lost, and why would you want to be with them? There are plenty of other people."

That's a fine opinion if we lived in a vacuum where perhaps every interaction was unique.

However, in an aggregate we see trends and inequality. If you're a segment that gets penalized for your race from most segments, do you not see why people would care? It doesn't mean people should be accused of being racist or should have to change their preference, rather we should be open to discuss why things are the way they are, not unlike race/gender imbalance in the tech world.

Are you sexist if you're gay? I think we can rest assured that sexual preference has nothing to do with being racist.

> Are you sexist if you're gay?

That's...a really interesting point.

Exactly. It would be completely unacceptable to challenge a gay person's natural attraction to another person of their gender. How can they help who they're attracted to, right? Yet for a straight person...people almost immediately assume racism.

Sexual orientation and sexual preference are not the same thing, though people argue where the line is. If you want to see a real shitstorm, see people arguing online if lesbians who sexually discriminate against transwomen are transphobic.

Personally, I see no difference.

Also, if e.g. a straight person says they have experimented with the same sex, I take that as potential evidence that they only like a few members of the same sex, but (comparably) many more members of the opposite sex.

> Sexual orientation and sexual preference are not the same thing, though people argue where the line is.

Probably because there isn't a line. Rich and poor aren't the same thing, either, but there isn't a line between them either.

Humans like clear binary categories (to the point of trying to force things into them) but reality often doesn't oblige by being neatly structured around them.

> Are you sexist if you're gay?

No more than if you are straight.

It's not racist, but saying "I only date black men" or (worse) "no azns, no femmes" (an all too common phrase on gay male hookup profiles) is incredibly dehumanizing and terrible on many levels.

It is obviously racist. But calling it such would trigger guilt in people who have such feelings yet have been conditioned to reflexively associate racism with evil.

I'm black. I don't think its like that at all.

I think its just years of living in a society that subtly signals x = attractive, and y = unnattractive. After a while you imbibe those ideals and lock them in and it can be really really really difficult to undo them in your brain.

I'm black and I've dated women of lots of different ethnicities, and I'm just going off fly-on-the-wall observations of their friends/family and even their behavior to other black guys.

It is pretty fascinating stuff ... albeit a bit depressing being black

Exactly.

It's funny, often on HN I'll see discussions about things or behaviors that push girls away from exploring STEM later in life.

Yet, how many times have I seen black women depicted in the media as boorish, unfeminine, annoying, unhealthy, or angry? Can I honestly say that it hasn't in some way affected my preferences as an adult? How can I say that my preferences are untouchable and mysteriously influenced when in fact it does fall in line with that of these statistics and the way that certain people are represented.

> I'm black. I don't think its like that at all.

I'd like to remind everyone this is one data point from someone who is black. I'm sure trustfundbaby didn't mean for what they said to be extrapolated to every black person in the world.

I don't see how that directly applies to what I've said. Racism in general is perpetuated by that kind of social conditioning. People incorporate the biases from their memetic environment and reference them as universal truths when it can benefit them.

We shouldn't corrupt a term by pretending it doesn't apply just to appease the consciences of shallow thinkers.

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