I Am an Indie iOS Developer – Part 2 | Hacker News Reader

I Am an Indie iOS Developer – Part 2

gabrielhauber.net

115 pointsclarky0752 comments

I don't have a family, and I wouldn't even dream of going indie with revenue like that, and my side revenue is about 3x+ that.

Until I'm clearing 10k/month, quitting isn't even a remote possibility. It would probably even need to be more with health insurance and self employment tax to consider.

Edit: I wish you the best of luck. Maybe I just lack the stomach for betting on something that isn't a sure bet.

A coincidence?

http://aeon.co/magazine/psychology/humans-are-wired-for-nega...

We are wired for negativity. You won't be alone.

You're in the US, right? I don't need anywhere near 10k a month in order to live, even with a large family and a mortgage, here in Australia.

Where in Australia? I lived there for a few months in both Melbourne and Sydney and everything was almost double the price compared to the US.

Sunshine Coast - about an hour's drive north of Brisbane.

Awesome place. I used to study at QUT and go up north for fishing in the weekend.

I live in the Sydney CBD fringe, about 1.5km out of the CBD. My rent is about $2,500 AUD a month and with other costs of living I could easily have a good life on $5,000 AUD a month.

It's just that my wife won't let me... :)

LOL. I think many people's expectation of what they "need" is actually skewed way high. If I was pulling in a consistent AU$5000 a month from my app business I would be quite content with that (as would my wife!).

US, yup. I'd like to be able to support a family, and that means something like $1100-$2000/mo mortgage, likely 2 cars/insurance going something like $500, utilities around $300/month.

And that $10k isn't $10k. It's more like $6k after taxes.

So with food and miscellaneous expenses, things start to get tight pretty quickly. Health insurance for a self employed person for a family will easily be $2000+/month. So on top of the high taxes, which are even higher for being self employed, you're getting a non-employer-paid health insurance plan.

...I think my "$10k/month" was probably a bit low, actually.

Extra taxes if you are self-employed? What, does your government want to discourage small business innovation or something?

It's the welfare programs that usually get split 50/50 with employer that you must pay 100% yourself.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ...

Medicare which I don't use, because I buy insurance, and social security which I'll never be able to collect.

Let's see… I don't have to pay any tax at all for the first $18000 pa. Then, only 19c in each dollar up to $37k, and higher rates above that, but nothing as high as working out to be 40% of income...

And... being a family with kids, the government gives us money... I actually get from the government more than I currently pay in taxes.

And... we have (relatively) an excellent public health system. I have no need to buy health insurance, even with a large family.

So... I am glad I'm not trying to do this in the US!!!

Social welfare can help entrapenours.

Best of luck and skill to you.

Worth mentioning: there is an attractive Plan B which is not "Sell house to avoid defaulting on debts." It is "do iOS development contracting work at market rates, which are somewhere between $1k and $2k per day." The failure of this business should not cause catastrophic financial consequences for your family.

Yeah. I just don't get this desire to become an independent app developer building your own apps. I know it's a dream to be your own boss and work from home and so on, but as a consultant (or contractor or freelancer, or whatever term we currently decide sounds most important and impressive), you will accrue the kind of finances that mean you can take very long holidays if you want, during which you can work on your own apps, or do nothing at all. Yes, you have to work for clients the rest of the time, and clients are often mercurial, but - especially if you're pitching yourself as a mini-agency who can take care of development, design, and even some strategy (subcontracting the bits you don't want to do, as appropriate) - really you often have a lot of freedom; and remote working is definitely becoming more common.

I just can't comprehend why someone would take such huge risks with potentially such limited returns (eg. months where this guy was making $100), having to learn the bizarre vagaries of "App Store Optimisation" (which I'm not really convinced isn't much more than a lottery anyway, and is hardly a core competency for many developers), when the same strong technical skills you already possess can guarantee you a fantastic income.

Hi bshimmin,

I've been an independent consultant for many years, and it was never lucrative for me. Maybe I just had the wrong network of contacts. I don't know. I only relatively moved into the iOS space and I've had some decent work, but again, it has been sporadic. Hence my desire to be completely independent and not have to rely on finding contracts all the time.

I have some very specific mid-long term goals for my life, and having to constantly find new contracts will not get me there.

There were never months I only made $100. I've only been committed to this path full-time since July 1 this year. The rest of SongSheet's history I did have other work that kept me somewhat busy.

You have to realise that where I live (Sunshine Coast, Qld, Australia) there isn't a lot people wanting apps built, and there aren't a lot of companies around here to work for, either. I chose to live here, though (biggest reason - my parents and my wife's parents are here, so my kids get to know their grandparents), so I have to live with the limited work opportunities.

I appreciate your thoughts, though :)

Thank you for your thoughtful and considered response to my slightly hasty one (I was half-way out of the door as I was typing it!).

You're absolutely right that contacts and location are important; I live out in the countryside and mostly work from my home office, but I think I can only do that right now because I spent most of the previous ten years in London building up the right sorts of connections to allow me to do that - and I still go to London regularly (usually weekly) and am willing to concede I may end up back there again.

With the right approach and attitude, building up connections isn't hard, but it takes a certain pushiness, persistence, and resilience (and an occasional willingness to work at less than a reasonable rate in order to secure future work - the so-called "loss leader" projects) - and in certain locations it may be much harder than others.

I guess I'm guilty of taking it for granted that everyone lives in London, SF, or NYC, where contract roles on eye-watering day-rates - the sort whereby you can work for some fraction of the year and do what you like for the rest, and still maintain an excellent lifestyle - are pretty easy to come by once you have a bit of experience under your belt.

(Wow, I'm late to this thread)

You seem to have a good handle on the London freelancing situation. Do you mind if I shoot you a few questions via email (mine is in my profile)?

Hey there. I appreciate your comments. It may very well be that I will end up doing contracting work like that. I had some good contracting work earlier this year that unfortunately went bad, and for whatever reason I wasn't able to find more before the money I had saved ran out. What the blog posts cover (did you read both?) is that I took this path because it was the only one left to me.

I'd love to know where these $1-2k per day iOS contract jobs are that you speak of, though :)

Where did you find this market rates information?

Worth nothing I think that $1-$2k are only market rates for the very top tier of developers working in prime markets like S.F., NYC etc. Elsewhere you're lucky to get $50/hr.

> if you imagine a smoothed curve then the levelling off between $4.99 and $6.99 and subsequent drop at $7.99 suggests that $6.99 may be the current sweet spot for SongSheet’s pricing.

At 4.99 and 6.99 the income was almost the same, with 6.99 having only a small edge. However at 4.99 more people are using your application, that may improve the long term growth. Also in general for about the same income, isn't it better to have more users benefitting from your work, and a cheaper to buy application?

Good question, one that I did consider at the time. I figured that the normal weekly variation at $4.99 actually made the total a little higher than it would otherwise. i.e. I went with my gut to a certain degree. You may be right about the more users thing at the lower price point giving better growth in the long term. The interesting thing (something I glossed over in the post) was that during the experiment, the total during the week it was at $4.99 was a lot higher than the baseline before the experiment (when it was also at $4.99).

Maybe the previous weeks have an effect on the next, for example a low price point brings more new users that will bias the result of the next week and so forth. It's hard to make a controlled experiment... but at least it is possible to do multiple experiments over time shuffling the order in which the prices are tried.

>"isn't it better to have more users benefitting from your work, and a cheaper to buy application"

Because the edge is so small it looks like the amount of user are the same and that edge is just because the price difference.

>> "for about the same income, isn't it better to have more users benefitting from your work, and a cheaper to buy application?"

Don't forget support costs. You can make the same income at each price point but at the lower one you will have to respond to lots more emails driving down your total income. Your point that more people using it could lead to higher long-term growth though is valid especially is the app is spreading via word-of-mouth. So it's an important trade off to consider.

the difference might not be that big at these price points, but if you go to the extreme I'd say no because of support costs. if you can make a similar amount on free with ads and at 9.99 your support costs will be lower at 9.99. Also, your lifetime value of a user is much much higher. If all those people who would get it at free actually need it, perhaps over time you'll be able to convince some of them to actually pay the 9.99. The value of your total addressable market is higher at the higher price point. Also, I've found on the app store the biggest hurdle you have to get over is that free -> not free jump. Once you convince someone it's worth paying for, getting them to pay another dollar or two isn't that hard.

Great look into the harsh reality (and yet awesome optimism) of indie devs on the App Store. I've been fairly successful doing staying independent for over three years but I'm still constantly amazed at how hard it is sometimes. I love seeing others take a shot, and when they have success it's a great thing.

Best of luck to you with SongSheet.

I live in the us. My current monthly expenses are about $1300. (Young, no kids, rent, own a car). I have ~18 mo worth of savings and and 1 very simple app on the App Store so far. I'm thinking I could quit my current job (java dev, strongly dislike it) now and spend at least a year trying to become indie. Do you think this is a reasonable thing to do?

I figure at the end of that year I will at least hopefully have enough of a portfolio to get hired as an ios dev somewhere and continue working on my dream with some more stable income.

I know it's probably smarter to keep working on apps on the side but I feel like I could progress south quicker not having a full time job. Also I dread mornings right now. Just curious about others' probably more seasoned opinions.

I think before you can answer that question, you need an answer to this question: What's my plan?

My advice to you would be to forget about it. Even if your apps do well you can easily make more money consulting. It's good to have a few apps in the store as a portfolio but if your goal is to become financially independent as a developer you're better off writing web apps or perhaps native desktop apps. Mobile is bad for indies now and steadily get worse.

If you have 18 months of savings put aside, are young, and hate your job, I think you'd be silly to not take 9 months off and try to do something fun.

You'll be just as employable - probably more so - when you're done, even if your projects don't take off at all.

I see no reason why someone should limit shimself to such a narrow field ("iOS" in this case). You shouldn't limit yourself even for "Mobile"... I mean, you're an engineer, you solve tasks, no matter if it is iOS related, Android, mobile in general or desktop...

>> "I see no reason why someone should limit shimself to such a narrow field"

For one person building and maintaining an app to a high standard on just one platform consumes all of your time. If you start developing it on another platform the first platform will suffer.

Not really, no.

Building a high-quality app, from scratch is indeed time consuming and generally a full-time affair for a single person. However maintaining it afterwards is significantly less effort as is replicating it to another platform. Latter is not a trivial effort by any means, but it is still much less time consuming than writing an original, because you can readily recycle (a) code (b) ideas (c) supporting infrastructure such as website, support pipeline, etc.

I agree. SongSheet on iOS is consuming all my time right now, but 6 months from now I'm sure I'll be spending time doing other things (porting SongSheet to other platforms or even developing other applications).

This. I'm an iOS developer and only working and learning new things in the field consumes all my time. I can't image how would I start working on different technology (say node.js, which is something I want to) without impacting on my iOS learning curve.

Ignoring the more generic point the gp poster made, if you want to learn Node but not sacrifice expertise on iOS why not identify a mobile app that requires a server side component and do that in Node. That way you still feel like you are working towards a singular goal of doing app development.

Hi zura,

You're right. (Although I can imagine some scenarios in which someone might spend most of their working life in one particular domain, and that's ok). Right now it is taking all my time to build and support this app. I doubt it will be all I will be doing 6 months from now. I have never limited myself long-term to only one platform: I've developed in Java for many years. I've developed applications for Windows. For Symbian. Web apps. And so on. I always like new challenges :) With SongSheet itself I plan on expanding it beyond iOS once I feel comfortable enough with how it is doing on that platform. I don't want to spread myself too thin right now, however - I'm not the best of multitaskers.

I'm doing an android port of my app right now. Very little code (aside from functional code) is re-usable. The view model is incredibly different.

In a few cases, it's a lot better. In most cases, it's significantly worse. It just seems to take longer to do everything.

The reason is marketing. If your website sells you as the perfect fit for everything from embedded systems to web apps to iOS to Android, you are going to have a hard time to stick out in any pile of candidates-for-our-next-project. If however you wrote a book on iOS development, have a few dozen in-depth articles on Objective-C and Swift on your blog and can refer to a handful of your apps in the app store, you will at least be on top of the (lucrative) pile of candidates-for-someones-next-iOS-project.

The problem is that any of those fields is very complex.

Taking iOS as example, one can specialize on the UI frameworks, audio, networking, HTTP, 2D, 3D (OpenGL, SceneKit, ...), layouts, UNIX layer ...

It is almost impossible to master the whole OS stack.

Now multiply this for all fields you might target.

This is why code written by many consultants, tend to be "just to get stuff done", as there is so much one can learn when jumping from field to field.

If one decides to specialize, it can be a good when in high demand, but also a problem to switch field when the demand is gone.

Insights in the post are incredible. Even though the details make the Indie way look a bit risky, the adventure part seems quite tempting. Wish you best of luck and thank you for sharing :)

Thanks :)

can anyone point to other articles from indie iOS/android developers where they share figures and learnings?

The developers of Camera+ have been releasing sales figures throughout the years that Camera+ has been available. Of course, they make millions from the app so it paints a slightly different picture than the typical "indie" app sales numbers.

Camera+ first month: http://taptaptap.com/blog/cameraplus-first-month-sales/

Camera+ hits $2 million: http://taptaptap.com/blog/cameraplus-hits-2-million-sales/

Camera+ hits $6 million: http://taptaptap.com/blog/cameraplus-reaches-6-million-sales...

Some things to note about Camera+ sales figures and how popular their app has been: 1) they run the extremely popular MacHeist promotion so they already have an established audience and email distribution list of over 100k people, 2) they were well known in the iOS community before releasing Camera+ so they had a base of people to spread the word, 3) Camera+, when released, was an amazing and different camera app and the market loved it.

I've done it several times:

http://www.entrelife.com/2012/05/how-i-went-from-0-to-50k-on...

http://www.entrelife.com/2013/01/my-first-year-on-my-own-in-...

http://www.entrelife.com/2014/01/my-app-business-2013-year-i...

A really, really insightful post Gabriel.

Great job - it's great to see someone really detailing things.

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

It does look very promising i wish you best luck :D

Thanks for that :)

No problem. thanks for sharing your story.

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