Ask HN: Toxic startup enviroment, need advice

You're an employee. 2 weeks notice is all you need to give. You already gave that, so move on.

Why would you stay at a place that you didn't like for 4 months? That was silly. So was telling them your business ideas. Honestly, you've got nobody to blame but yourself here.

Non-competes aren't even valid in California so just move there and start your social network for dogs.

Social network for dogs. Crap. How did you KNOW??

:)

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

I am loyal and think taking a few months out to help people transition isn't that big a deal.

But really, it's a trait I have that makes me a good employee, but also opens me up to this sort of exploitation.

Live and learn.

Read this, and re-read it a couple times a year:

http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other...

Mike O. can be entertaining, but he needs to stop taking himself so seriously.

Ironically, using a sample size of 2 companies to make sweeping generalizations about "the social status of software engineers" indicates the author is not cut out for data science. Anyone who would rely on anecdotes and tiny sample sizes to draw such strong conclusions should stay away from statistics.

> You're an employee. 2 weeks notice is all you need to give.

You do not "need" to give 2 weeks. You are free to leave immediately or negotiate a mutually agreeable separation arrangement.

Quit ASAP. You owe them nothing. I am telling you right now, whatever justice you are trying to achieve by "standing by your word", you will not achieve it and they will still fuck you over. DO NOT under any circumstances waste more of your time. Let me rephrase. Do not waste any of your LIFE on this situation. It's not worth it.

Here is what you should do starting right now.

1. Document everything that you still can. Emails, conversations, records. Get everything and put it into a folder. You will need this in case something comes up later.

2. Quit tomorrow.

3. Go pursue your startup idea. If you need more savings and want to build some up, do some freelance projects which I'm sure others on here would be happy to point you towards. You already said additional money is not a requirement so there should be nothing stopping you from wasting your time.

Again, you owe them nothing.

I love checklists :

1. On it. I've gotten emails forwarded to my personal account and d no personal projects on work laptops or time. Atleast I've got that going for me.

2. :( Can't pull that off right now.

3. I hadn't thought of this. Or rather, had discounted it because it would lead to a lack of focus. However, too many people have now suggested this for me to ignore. Thanks :)

> 2. :( Can't pull that off right now.

Why can't you quit? You already gave your notice. If they are not trying to replace you, that's their problem, not yours. If you are short of money, can you get another job first, do some saving and pursue your idea on the side?

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

I've thought a lot about this since I posted this question. At the end of the day, I've given them notice till X. So, it doesn't sit right by me to not honor that :(

Yeah, it's naive, but I think getting out of this mess without devolving to their level means something to me.

This attitude is what got you into the mess in the first place. If you're not going to take the first step in trying to better yourself for your own good, then I have no faith in you.

If you're going to start a company, you're going to have to make hard decisions and have conviction. If you can't do even this when it's quite clear that it's negatively affecting you, then please don't start a company and just find another job.

After you quit, you can absolutely compete with them. The only issue around "owning the idea" is with regards to patents. Having personally gone through this, it is hard (perhaps impossible) for them to claim patent assignment on a patentable idea that hasn't already been filed with the patent office before your end date. Once you leave the company, preparing the patent application would be work which you can not be forced to do. They also can't file since they weren't the inventors.

> when pressed about my plans, told Fs

There's your mistake. It's one thing to keep your ideas separate from your work (there are contracts that insist that any idea you have belongs to who you work for), but it's another to tell your company about your ideas. As soon as you tell them, they can make an argument about who owns the idea.

That said, they sound pretty incompetent. If you're serious about your idea, you probably need a lawyer at this point. If not, cut your losses, be done with them, and move on. I can't actually give you advice on your idea, it might be good to let that go as well if you want to avoid future legal problems. If you think it's worth fighting for, get a lawyer.

In the future, keep your ideas separate from your work if you're entrepreneurial. By that I mean only work on them in your own time on your own equipment, including your smart phone.

Yes. It really was. I don't like to think of myself as naive, but I really didn't think that one through. I have validated the need for the product and, though IANAL, think it's worth the risk (considering email evidence etc).

Thanks for your feedback. And, I mean it when I say this: I appreciate you taking the time to comment and reinforce my "fuck that was stupid" moment. Live and learn I guess.

Somehow I doubt that these guys have the drive and sticktuitiveness to go after the OP in court. Seems that they're either too shy or too lazy to even talk to potential customers, much less fight you in court for another idea that they wouldn't follow through on anyway.

OP should probably take sensible precautions like saving all his e-mails (off of company machines!) and staying on friendly terms with other employees who might one day be called as witnesses. But I wouldn't recommend "ragequitting", just go politely.

Yup. I am not worried about being out-executed by them. Things would be a lot different if I respected their execution enough to be afraid of it :)

I've been meticulous about saving emails and am on great terms with the other employees.

As you recommend, I'm swallowing my bile and quitting politely, but firmly.

Thanks for taking the time to comment. It's unanimous: I've been stupid and the only thing to do now is damage control and move on with life :)

I don't think you've been stupid. You were patient and gave some of your time to support someone else. If nobody did that, or if we called people "stupid" for doing that, we'd be living in a pretty lousy world. In this case it didn't work out for you, but next time maybe it will. I hope you don't adapt to this experience by becoming a trust-no-one paranoid.

Hi Joe,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I understand what you mean. While I'm going to still be loyal until given reason not to, the main thing this experience has taught me is that you can't wait too long for other people to help themselves.

Sometimes being loyal/being there is just enabling. I guess the art is in figuring out when you are supporting vs enabling :)

First of all, don't worry about them stealing your idea when they can't even get their own off the ground.

Secondly, if your working relationship with the founders is "let the lawyers decide" you don't owe them anything, much less any more time out of your life.

Thirdly, staying on longer would give them room to maneuver you into a bad legal position with respect to the non-compete clause. If you give final notice of leaving and the next day the company unexpectedly pivots to your idea, you're left in a bit of a jam. Sooner might well be better than later in this case.

What you decide to do is ultimately up to you. But be wary of being manipulated into another 4 month notice period, and another, and another. Your time is the most important resource you have (up there with your health); be wary of wasting it.

Makes sense. And, thats what I've been telling myself. My SO is very adamant on #2 and has been pushing me to leave. I guess my sense of miss-guided "do the right thing" attitude is fucking me over.

Since I posted the question I took time to evaluate the situation and came to pretty much your conclusions :) So, I've bought a plane ticket for a week long vacation in October and I plan to have quit by then.

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

I've made the "loyalty" mistake before too. I stayed too long at one company, quit and then came back out of some sense of loyalty to the clients and my team. In the end, I would have been better off leaving as soon as I new it was going sour.

My recommendation:

1. Leave now. Give them two week as a final notice and leave.

2. Reach out to your personal and professional network with a clear ask for some freelance introductions to hold you over for a few months.

3. Put the rest of your time into you own idea and build it.

4. Don't worry about non-competes. They're nearly impossible to enforce, and it sounds like these guys won't have the stones to support any kind of legal fight past a stern letter from a cheap lawyer.