Can You Fly Without an ID? (2013) | Hacker News Reader

Can You Fly Without an ID? (2013)

blog.tsa.gov

24 points_pius47 comments

This is a little bit of a tangent...

Why, in the US, are IDs immediately ignored when they expire? You often read about people being unable to vote, buy alcohol, or travel because their driving licence expired last week.

But realistically the whole point of ID checking is to determine if someone is who they say they are. If they have a picture ID, expired or not, which clearly proves that then why not accept it regardless of expiry?

The only reason these IDs expire at all is to force you to update the photo and other personal info.

PS - I understand why with international travel and passports. Since then you're subject to the foreign entities' rules/stupidity (and airlines can be fined for letting someone travel without a valid passport). I'm mostly asking about inter-US travel.

People can sell or give away expired licenses when they receive a new one. You can't trust an expired license because it implies there's one which _isn't_ expired.

It took me a long time to think of this, but I feel that it's a solid statement:

If you remember that The State replaces "lost" licenses for a small fee, you'll realize why the policy of refusing to accept "expired" licenses is asinine.

As a twenty-something, I've never heard of anyone selling or giving away an expired ID, as nobody will take it. Instead, you go to DMV and say you lost your ID – they'll charge you $X, and you sell the original for $X+P (where P is your profit margin).

> You can't trust an expired license because it implies there's one which _isn't_ expired.

This is also untrue. Just because my ID has expired doesn't mean that I've already gone through the steps to get a new ID. An expired ID means that the ID has expired; nothing more, nothing less.

Can confirm. Did this all through college.

Speaking of 'things that should be tracked' - I'm blown away that it didn't raise any red flags when I 'lost' ~50 Drivers Licenses over the course of a year or two.

Do you really not care about people running around with your identity?

Also, I call shenanigans!

At least where I grew up, nobody cared about expired licenses. Many of my friends used their sibling's or friend's old IDs to buy alcohol or cigarettes, despite the expiration. Perhaps this practice lead to people checking expiration.

I can get a replacement ID at little cost (≈$30) [1]. I don't know that they do anything to invalidate the ID being replaced. In the case of the TSA where they're just looking at the ID and not running it through a database both would work just as good.

http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/replace-license.php

If that was a valid argument, it would apply equally to non-expired licenses, since people can order a duplicate of a non-expired license and sell or give away either the duplicate or the original.

Heck, people could, in principle, transfer the original even if they didn't get a duplicate. (There's a reason IDs have photos, signatures, height/weight information, and tie to databases with fingerprint and other data -- you aren't supposed to rely on the uniqueness of the document you are supposed to rely on the match between the information on the document and the person in front of you.)

Also, what's the significance of calling it expired if it continues to be honored? Honoring an expired document breaks the rationale for expiry.

Aren't you really just asking why IDs have an expiration date at all?

Driver Licenses have an expiration date so that

1) The State can make sure that the DMV gets to perform a periodic cursory evaluation of a driver.

2) ???

3) (Insignificant) Profit!!

No, in fact my post expressly says why they expire.

I am asking why third parties (i.e. not the DMV) take the license expiry so seriously, even in cases where it makes no sense to do so.

The ID expiry cycle is partially so that new anti-forgery techniques can be employed.

Procrastinator that I am, I learned that you can use a driver's license for US airport boarding up to 1 year after the expiry date.

I had inconsistent experience with this. I am also a procrastinator, I found that one leg of the trip they didn't care or ask, but on the way back they made a fuss over it. Possibly I could have spent more of my time arguing with them, but luckily I also had my not-expired passport so just moved along.

Same goes when using a passport for domestic travel.

Yet, two months past the expiry date is not acceptable for buying a pack of beer.

Source: happened to me.

That could be due to:

1. Different laws (i.e. liquor law says no expired IDs)

2. Overly cautious liquor retailers who don't want to lose their license because of an overly zealous gov't official

I think it enables adding new anti-counterfeiting features.

Let's say you add new anti-counterfeiting features for all IDs after a certain date. IDs before that date eventually expire. If they remained valid, then you could bypass the new features by counterfeiting an old expired ID. If they become invalid, the best you can do is counterfeit an old ID with an expiration date in the future and hope they don't realize that the old design can't possibly have an expiration date that's so late.

Security features improve. At this point, the rate of convincing fakes of DLs in the Real ID program is miniscule. If you buy a fake, it will most likely be an older model. Assuming a 10 year cycle, 10 years after Real ID went into effect, no ID can be valid without the new, much-more-difficult-to-imitate security features.

Some of these are physical (laser etching instead of dye printing) and some are internal controls. IDs are now printed at central facilities per state which meet stringent physical security standards and apply the 2-man rule, rigorous auditing, and other controls to prevent the aribtrary printing of IDs by employess. A "friend" in a local office used to be the best way of getting fakes made. That loophole is now closed. Equipment for serious laser etching is too expensive to buy without serious capital and much more difficult to explain away than more innocuous-seeming pigment printing tech. It is also harder to fraudulently aquire the documents necessary to get a DMV to issue you an ID for someone else. Etc.

If IDs didn't expire, none of this would matter because fakes would continue to be printed with issue dates of runs with less stringent security features, and fakes made before those features went into effect would be valid forever.

Then why not use a rule like "expired licenses prior to this date are unacceptable" rather than "even if it expired yesterday, and there are no new security features, it's still unacceptable."

Oh! Like an expiration date for the expiration date!

Keeping those rules up to date for all 50 states would be pretty difficult. Seems like, in most cases, you could just use the expiration dates.

That's bullshit.

DMVs printing RealIDs right now use high-end Fargos or Zebras, all under <$5000. The main detail these offer is multi-sided dye-sublimation and the ability to use a UV ribbon. "Microprinting" is a joke when you, as a consumer, can buy the exact same equipment that governments use.

The most difficult security feature they utilize at the moment is a multi-spectrum visible hologram, something you cannot actually produce in a small-scale.

Fortunately, you may order RealID state multi-spectrum holograms for around ~30 states from China and India on the cheap (~$1/ea shipped), and they're not visibly different under a loop.

States should experiment with embedding a RFID or similar that outputs the expiration date digitally. Renewals are done online and updated to the RFID (electronic chip) by a dongle attached to the phone or other connection method. Data should be encrypted.

Maybe that would reduce the # of expired IDs?

In Illinois, I updated my DL by paying online and receiving a sticker that I would apply to the card. Convert this system digitally.

A few years ago I lost my ID on the way to visit a friend in Oakland. I did have a extremely old drivers license that was basically faded to nothing. On my trip home, I presented this to the TSA agent. He proceeded to pull a jewelers monocle out of nowhere, examined the ID, and let me through. That was a weird experience. I hadn't even considered that I might not need an ID at all.

The official TSA blog...did not look anything like I expected it to be.

Indeed. And the tone is surprisingly lighthearted.

Surprising and, I found it, very annoying.

it's the mobile version

And what 14 year old wrote this?

It's nice to hear that from the horse's mouth, but it kind of misses the point that a lot of the folks who would try to fly without showing ID are trying to make which is that you shouldn't have to ID yourself (at least not to the gov't) in order to fly.

I had some family come out recently and my brother lost his ID a day or 2 before the trip. When going through security on his return flight home, I watched him get taken to the front of line for the scanning machine, ran through these databases right next to the scanners and was cleared a lot faster than other members in my family going through the normal process.

IIRC this is powered by an Experian product called PreciseID. It's interesting tech. You can read about it here: http://www.experian.com/assets/government/white-papers/ident...

A couple weeks ago I flew from NY to SF without any government photo ID. I brought my social security card and school ID (which has a photo)...the TSA agent looked over the cards and said it was fine, as long as I wasn't going overseas.

(didn't even get an additional patdown or luggage screening)

Isn't a Social Security card a type of government issued ID? It didn't mention anything about a photo.

Not necessarily...when taking on a new job, you have to fill out DHS forms that establish:

1. Identity http://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/acceptable-documents/list-b...

2. Authorization to work: http://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/acceptable-documents/list-c...

A SS card (and birth certificate) falls in that latter category. It cannot alone establish identity.

imagine if you didn't have to tell the airline your identity until the day of the flight (eliminating change fees). I'm guessing airline ticket prices would (ultimately) become less volatile with the introduction of ticket brokers.

Who's in charge of the the design of that site?

Terribly resized image containing the URL, horrible font...

Looks like it is a Blogger template.

It's the mobile version.

You totally can. Buddy lost his ID in Vegas, and flew back. Rattled off his CA DL#, got a putdown, and was good to go.

> Rattled off his CA DL#, got a putdown, and was good to go.

Can I opt for the non-putdown line?

I lost my DL while visiting family a while ago. I was told that without a suitable photo ID, I'd have to do the "enhanced patdown". It was just like every other patdown I've ever been in, except the person took a little more time instead of rushing me through.

No. You get the special line staffed by TSA agents who moonlight as cynical standup comedians used to dealing with hecklers.

same thing happened to me in vegas. i didn't have to give my DL info, i just had to know the details of the itinerary and then they took me to a back area, searched my bags thoroughly, then let me through to the gate with a normal boarding pass.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com