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Ask HN: Do you have to move out to move up?

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I'm in a technical / product manager role at a non-tech company. For people in a similar situation, do you feel like you have to move out to move up? If not, how do you parlay technical strengths into increased responsibility & promotions.

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I think you have to take a brutally honest assessment of how important technology is to your company. By important, I mean, is technology a frequent consideration in C-level decisionmaking? Is technology directly, or at least closely, tied to revenue? Who is your boss, and to whom does he or she report? What about that person's boss? Where does your group fit into the org structure? These are the indicators that matter. Lots of non-tech companies can talk the talk, or at least make the necessary noises. But check to see where your company's mouth and money are.

Don't be fooled by trends, or by your company's current infatuation with any buzzy topic of the moment that happens to play to your strengths. Companies eat up and spit out new trends every quarter. Instead, look to things more fundamental and deeply ingrained: org structures; career tracks (if any) for your function there; the power structure and network of decisionmaking; how the company makes its money; etc.

If tech is not really that important to your company, you've got a choice to make. Stick with the company if you want to coast, and perhaps to reach a nicely compensated sinecure within the firm. You can do well for yourself, but you might never really climb the ladder, or attain strategic importance. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that. That's the endgame perhaps 90% of all workers strive for. Leave if you hunger for something more than that.

On the other hand, it is certainly possible to become a hot, exotic, and indispensable figure at a non-tech company by being a techie who is sufficiently skilled in the arts of politics and influence. But you will need to master those arts. Technical competence alone, even extreme competence, will be necessary but insufficient.

Where tech isn't integral to what the company produces it usually can nevertheless significantly boost areas that usually are: "operations" or "marketing". The person who introduces the system that gets customers from Google to the right regional sales rep and can produce neat little charts to prove it works is the sort of person that gets consulted on strategic marketing and sales operations decisions even at the sort of organization that thinks "growth hacking" is a type of computer crime.

Ultimately it boils down more to people than positions or market. Do management perceive any ideas you have about tech projects that could improve the company's efficiency or sales as a sign you're a rising star or that they haven't given you enough instructions on how you should be spending your time?

Absolutely, but as with anything, what really matters is optics. Who's getting the credit for the innovations you introduce? And are your suggestions going to be taken seriously in the first place? If so, who presents them to leadership? You, or the marketing director who does a trial run and sees the business results? How and when will those results be disseminated, and in front of what audience?

You'll have to consider and navigate all of these things. While these are good skills to have in any role, technical or non-technical, they are especially crucial at a company where you're removed from the core line of business. If you're in a technical role at a non-technical company, you need to be an especially strong presenter and "internal salesman" of ideas. Don't assume that because you brought an idea forward, it'll be adopted straight away -- or that when it is adopted, you'll be credited.

I'm not saying this out of cynicism per se. I've seen technical people thrive, and even kick ass, in leadership roles at non-technical companies. At the same time, I know that those people are an exception and not a rule. What tends to make them exceptional are their political skills. Corporate America likes, but does not necessarily reward, a workhorse. But it loves, and handsomely rewards, a "Big Idea" person. It's hard to be the Big Ideas guy unless you can hook your ideas into the KPIs your company cares the most about.

I've worked in big corporate environments and small startups (both as a manager and a developer). In the former, I think you have to ask whether your boss has your back. Is he/she interested in furthering your career / ask about your aspirations / come up with a concrete plan for getting you there? If not, you're stuck. In that case, I've found it helps enormously to make yourself visible to your boss's peers (and his/her boss). Figure out what their priorities are and start to address them.

If you're in a smaller company or startup then you've just got to have hustle. Chances are that there are half a dozen unfilled job roles around you and you just need to step in.

Both cases summed up by this advice I received early in my career:

"People don't promote you into a role until you're already doing it."

Well, you haven't really explained the situation you're in very well, so I can only make general statements.

Being in a non-tech company could be a good thing. It mostly shouldn't be a variable in your situation. You could have the chance to greatly expand the tech work in the company. I personally think all companies need to have a huge emphasis on in-house technology these days. Even if they contract out the bulk of their work, they still need knowledgeable people on staff to be responsible for the consultants. I say this speaking as a freelance consultant myself. I can only do what I'm told. Someone else has to set the policy, and I've seen what happens--on several occasions--when liberal arts majors are made CTOs of companies.

I also firmly believe in not asking for permission to take on responsibility. If you are meeting your expectations for work, on time and on budget, then there is nothing stopping you from being proactive about side projects and anticipating needs within the company.

If, in doing that, you don't receive the recognition you think you deserve, then you will know it's time to find a new company. But just because you're not being given the chance to shine that you think you need to get the promotion you want, isn't related to it being a tech company or not. You won't find a tech company that hands you opportunities.

tl;dr - Yes.

I worked at one company for a long time (10+ years). There was something about it that really bothered me, and it took me a long time to be able to articulate it.

The way I eventually phrased it: You are what you were hired to be.

I was hired as a junior engineer, and it seemed like no matter how much I learned and how much more I contributed to projects, I was at least partially viewed through the lens of that initial hire as a junior engineer. I had to fight hard for promotions, and like others have said, the commensurate pay only came after I had been operating at that level for some time.

Once you know this, it's not so bad. I'm happy where I am now, and I'm not job hunting. But I know I won't want to do this exact thing forever, and when the time comes for me to make a change, it will very likely be to another company. I tried too long before to find career growth satisfaction with one employer. I gave them too many years to underpay me (it's more than just pay of course, it's the recognition that your value to them has increased).

Once I read somewhere: "You don't go anywhere and for more money seated in the same seat". I never forgot it.

I like: "Office chairs may have wheels, but that doesn't mean they'll get you anywhere."

What does it mean? Having difficulties parsing it for some reason.

rephrased: You can't move or make more money by staying in the same chair.

You have to take into consideration that staying in your current job will increase your experience for the job that may come forth in the near future. If that is not the case, then leaving would be your best option. Always try to improve yourself, take additional responsibilities and learn new practices, anything that you invest in yourself will help you move up.

It sucks to assume that switching jobs will automatically helps you "move up" because in order for you to "move up" and gain higher responsibilities, you have to demonstrate the skills required for the higher position.

Try taking on some side projects, pick up best practices for Agile, learn new programming languages, launch new products. For a technical / product manager, your best bet of moving up is to keep launching products. I aim to launch about 8~10 products a year, about 5 of them are side projects.

Without knowing about the particulars, I would say: yes. IT jobs in non-IT related companies are more or less dead end jobs, it's seen as a cost rather than profit center so you can be sure someone is working in replacing your job already (either by hiring consultants or automation, SaaS, PaaS, ...).

That said, in some specific circumstances, when you're the right-hand of the C-levels, it may pay off. But you have to marry the technical expertise with executive skills to move up, so they can see you as "one of them" and justify above market salary and/or promotions.

> how do you parlay technical strengths into increased responsibility & promotions.

Suggest tech focused projects that might serve the companies unmet needs. Sales & Marketing might need a dashboard to asses the customer pipeline. The CFO might need a tool to monitor energy usage & costs. Volunteer to help, you'll get known as the brains who figures stuff out.

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