How the 'Kung Fu Fighting' Melody Came to Represent Asia | Hacker News Reader

How the 'Kung Fu Fighting' Melody Came to Represent Asia

npr.org

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This tune has its own Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_riff . This site has the definitive in depth exploration of the Oriental Riff: http://chinoiserie.atspace.com/index.html .

Similarly, there's nothing turkish about "Rondo alla Turca" by Mozart, as illustrated hilariously by Igudesman and Joo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNtYYuWILNE

It's more complicated than that. Mozart was following a "Turkish"/"Janissary" style of music popular in Europe at the time. Indeed the style was pretty much unrelated to actual music from Turkey, but there's a history of how it developed that started with Turkish Janissary bands. (More obviously in orchestral "Turkish" music than in Mozart's piano sonata, where compositions used exotic instruments like bass drums.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_music_%28style%29

For a piece of music with a similar association, see The Streets of Cairo, or the Poor Little Country Maid¹ which for many have come to symbolize ancient Egypt¹.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Streets_of_Cairo,_or_the_P...

Don't forget also the "circus" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrance_of_the_Gladiators

the "camping" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Banjos

the "end of the world" song: "O Fortuna" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana_(Orff)

the "nautical" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sailor's_Hornpipe

the "Italian" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantella_Napoletana

the "morning" song: "Ranz des Vaches" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell_Overture

Just the first couple seconds of any of those songs are universally recognizable and commonly used to set scenes.

I wonder, is there a stereotypical "American" riff used in Chinese media? The beginning of "Yankee Doodle" or something?

"Hail to the Chief" comes to mind as used for setting scenes in America in many movies. Usually scenes having to do with the character playing the president, but in a lot movies that is the main time they need to say 'hey this america people'

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardSnippet has a long list.

Please refrain from linking to TV Tropes during work hours, thank you.

On an international site (it's currently 18:30 on Friday evening where I am, for example), populated by people who might not necessarily do 9-5 Mon-Fri, I don't think there's any such thing as non-work-hours

If you mean 'please don't link to TV Tropes', say so.

I think it was a joke.

Another good example is the "love" riff, from Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet overture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2jKeYuPvjM#t=9m2s

And Chopin's Funeral March: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEX1dYyvmig

I was thinking that the most stereotypical "morning" riff would be "Morning Mood" from Peer Gynt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_Mood

But then I listened through the William Tell Overture enough to get to "Ranz des Vaches", and -- you're right, that's the big one. I just hadn't realized that "Ranz des Vaches" and "Morning Mood" were different tunes until now!

The X Factor really spoiled O Fortuna for me.

Most things have spoiled O Fortuna for me (though I've never watched the X Factor).

When I listen to Carmina Burana I usually skip to track 2.

    Fortune rota volvitur;
    descendo minoratus;
    alter in altum tollitur;
    nimis exaltatus
    rex sedet in vertice
    caveat ruinam!
    nam sub axe legimus
    Hecubam reginam.

I have literally never heard this before. It has absolutely no association in my head whatsoever.

mfw "the pentatonic scale." Pentatonic is a form of scales. There are innumerable pentatonic scales, although practically, it's bounded by about 50!/45!. [0] And in everyday 12-tone chromatic use, there are at least 5 different versions [1]. Even in Asian scales, there are numerous pentatonic scales in use.

[0] presuming a pitch resolution of 2%.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVbGYvHd0qo

Blues music, for example, uses pentatonic scales, yet blues music does not sound like Thai music.

Now that technical matter has been cleared, I find it hilarious and symptomatic that researchers didn't look into any CHINESE MUSIC to see if there were any sounds that might have influenced Western composers. For example, just listening to music played on a Gu Chin [ 2 ] reveals a number of similar intervals (such as single step motion and parallel fourths) and stark tonality that could easily be recognized in attempts by Western composers to imitate and integrate Chinese music.

That article was less of a "how it happened" and more a "that it happened." The seething, suspicious racial tension underneath was distracting and needless. Everyone should ignore it (and probably the rest of NPR) and simply enjoy Chinese music for what it is: interesting and beautiful. sigh.

[ 2 ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin

you know more and have suggested more jumping-off points for further research than anyone else in this thread - so of course your comment is near the bottom. this site sometimes, sigh.

The comment is smug, unhelpful, and very misleading about the pentatonic scale.

Okay, you could call any five notes a pentatonic scale, but don't let that distract you from the pentatonic scale, the set of five notes that appears in many cultures for solid music theoretical reasons.

The linked video about blues is using the same scale, just with the notes in a different order. Different modes are not different scales. D F G A C is the same scale as C D F G A. We should be interested in the fact that blues and Thai music use the same intervals, not dismissive.

The comment also continues to ramble through several kinda-music-theory-esque statements whose aim is not to inform, but just to make the author appear smart.

Yep. This site sometimes.

> the fact that blues and Thai music use the same intervals

Blues and Thai music do not use the same intervals. Blues is hemitonic, Thai music is anhemitonic.

".And the Thai musical scale is indeed different -- for the intervals between all notes are exactly the same. This means that almost all the notes are slightly different in pitch from those on the western scale. Only the interval between a note and its octave, eight notes higher up the scale, is the same as in the west." [0]

[0] http://www.thaiwaysmagazine.com/thai_article/2605_traditiona...

> D F G A C is the same scale as C D F G A

D F G A C is the D Minor Pentatonic scale [1]

C D F G A is the C Blues Major Pentatonic scale, aka Chinese Ritusen scale [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale

> Yep. This site sometimes.

The problem with this site is that people don't accept information unless it's accompanied with a major dose of ass-kissing. "So, pretty please with sugar on top, clean the fucking car."

> > kinda-music-theory-esque statements > solid music theoretical reasons

Ok, you've done what you've accused me of doing. Care to back your statement up?

This is super weird, but I just saw the clip of this from Scrubs, this morning. Interesting to get the back story in such a short time span.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbXbBoRKLVU

not sure why this was downvoted, but upvoted it into the black.

I'm not usually interested in reading idle musings about what the commenter was doing today, and I tend to downvote those.

I feel like HN users increasingly treat the comments as a place to just spit out whatever is on their mind. That's great in a regular conversation, but I don't want the comments section to turn into a place for conversations. I'd rather see fewer, more informative comments.

its not off topic nor offensive. people trying to force other people what to say and how to express themselves to suit what they want is exactly the problem we have today.

however, it would make sense to give people an option to choose what type of comment they are leaving (muse, additional context, rant, etc) and allow users to filter which ones they see.

It seems to me that how it's played is almost as important as the melody itself. Playing it just now on a clean guitar and a piano, it's not all that evocative of China. Yes, maybe a little bit, but it does sound 'wrong'. Curious.

OK, so it's not a Chinese tune. What would be a suitable replacement? Ideally something authentically Chinese, broadly recognizable, and somehow representative of Chinese music.

What about looking at what Carl Sagan et al. put in the Golden Record on Voyager 1 [1] ?

They put a beautiful piece of zither [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contents_of_the_Voyager_Golden... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lReQHyOYgU

Carl Douglas and Biddu are ostensibly both alive; has anyone asked them how they came upon the riff?

The riff predates the song. According to the NPR piece it's been in use to signify oriental culture since at least 1930.

yeah, the title was just for click bait. I doubt the kung fu fighting song had little to do with its popularity in use, as it was already widely used.

I heard a little of the backstory on this riff on John Hodgeman's judge podcast. good stuff.

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