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Comment by 4chan4ever | Hacker News Reader

Well I'll be the lone dissenting voice here. Downmod away...

First, I think illegal immigration is still ILLEGAL immigration and yes, the laws need to be reformed but until they are, let's not be too devious in how we aid and abet criminal behaviors.

Second and more to the point, anybody who's considering immigrating to the US of A (or Canada) for "technology" will face a rude awakening in another 5-10 years. You're immigrating to the wrong hemisphere. Now if you think you might be a good producer of trash reality TV then hey! Come on over. That's where America truly excels.

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I don't like to downmod to express my disagreement, so let me try to put it into words instead of the 'down arrow'.

I think that your stance is absolutely indefensible since the poster explicitly states that he came to America as a young child and 'inherited' his status as an illegal from his parents.

So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law (if there is one thing you do not do as an illegal it is breaking ANY laws, since that can lead to instant deportation) simply by walking around on the street there is a risk.

If you have been in a country for as long as you remember and you have been a productive element in that society then by any definition you are part of that society, and not a criminal.

To pretend it is otherwise because of a bunch of stupid pieces of paper is putting the horse behind the cart.

  So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law ... been a productive element in that society

If he has been a productive member of society then he has broken several laws around the employment of illegals, including tax evasion. It as if he broke in to your house and has been living in your attic. He contributed to the upkeep of the house by fixing a holes in the roof so that his bed would stay dry. Now that he has lived in your attic for so long he demands ownership since he doesn't remember living anywhere else and doesn't have anywhere else to go.

  ...in that society then by any definition you are part of that society

No, you are member of society when you live by the rules of that society, and take your punishment when you violate their rules. Doing what you want and breaking whichever rules you want because they don't apply to you doesn't make you member of society. That is not to say the law is correct, but violating them because you don't like them makes you a criminal not a citizen. If he were practicing Civil Disobedience then there would be a political component to his action instead of entitlement whining.

If your parents take you along on their illegal trip as a child that does not make YOU a criminal, it makes you a victim, but the system will treat you as though you are a criminal.

Age has no bearing on the legality of the action in question. So yes you are a criminal weather you are 6 months or 60 years old. I am pretty sure they treat you differently based on age though. I can't see them deporting a 6 month old without a care taker like they would an adult. I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to set up a mail relay to "leave" the country while you work on your citizenship papers. Nor would I be surprised to find out that it were quicker to get a Canadian citizenship and use that to apply for a US citizenship.

> So yes you are a criminal weather you are 6 months or 60 years old.

We seem to have a different opinion on that.

Personally I think that any system - and any person - that can treat 6 months olds as criminals is seriously broken, and to be held in contempt.

It isn't like the punishment is something horrible. We don't put illegal emigrants in Leavenworth. We give them a free plane ride home. Where they are fully able to try to come into the country again legally or illegally.

Believe what you like. Personally I am happy with the fact that murder is illegal for everyone not just people over the age of 35. Personally I am happy that theft is illegal to everyone not just people over the age of 40. Personally I like the fact that courts are allowed to deal with assaults committed by minors and even have special rules regarding their care. I believe you have to have rules that apply to everybody, you can't decide that this isn't a crime today but wake up tomorrow and you get death row for it.

> We give them a free plane ride home.

For someone that was brought in to the US and is now at an age to have completed their secondary education home is the United States. No amount of paper waving and applying of the rules is going to change that.

Anyway, I'm wasting my time with this, I only wish that in your life you will never ever come up against a situation where you will be forced to realize just how cruel your stance is.

We're not debating murder here, that's just a straw man. We are not dealing with assault, committed by minors or otherwise.

The subject was immigration, specifically by minors too young to even realize what that means.

  you will be forced to realize just how cruel your stance is.

What is cruel about expecting people to live by the rules they have agreed to live by? Yes and he is a grown up now and has known for years that he is in the wrong. Instead of doing the right thing he complains about how we should all just love him for it. It would be a big relief for him if he went home no more fear of being discovered, no more I can't do that because I might be found out, the ability to get an id, bank account, health insurance, take the GRE. If he wanted to go to grad school he could be back in a semester on a student visa.(according to travel.state.gov a student visa takes at most 120 days and $300)

  The subject was immigration, specifically by 
  minors too young to even realize what that means.

No I was talking about the fact that the rules apply to everyone, and the fact that is not a bad thing like you seem to think it is.

Stonemetal, what would you do if you discovered that you were actually born in, say, Ethiopia, and were brought to the US illegally as an infant?

Would you simply leave for a foreign country you have no knowledge of, abandoning your life, severing your relationships, giving up all of the property that you earned through your own endeavors, just because the law is the law?

Any rule that would compel you to do so is simply, unequivocally _wrong_, and deserves to be violated.

It does. If you are born in the US, you're automatically naturalized, even if your parents are illegal citizens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#B...

6 months difference between legal and illegal seems a bit arbitrary.

Society is not the state, and the state is not society. The state can and does create arbitrary rules that are actually harmful to society. I consider this one of them.

Real criminals are people who do harm to others, not people who simply break bureaucratic rules.

First, I am done, d o n e, debating the legality of my existence. Normally you debate to reach a compromise. In this case, "debating" these laws, and people like me along with them, out of existence is the strategy of our opposition. They are not interested in compromise. While we debate, the time is ticking, and then, before you know it the Congressional session is over. Lather, rinse, repeat.

They even came up with a name for it, "enforcement through attrition." Make our life so horrible that we opt for voluntary departure. How fucked up is that? How full of bigotry do you have to be to come up with something like that?

To people who truly want to help, stop debating, stop listening. Start pressuring your legislators to action!

Second, I didn't immigrate here for "technology" or anything else. I grew up here. I went to school with brilliant engineers who now do brilliant things. I think YC itself is a testament to the talent that exists in this country. So, good luck with that thinking.

Over the years that I've been working towards the passage of the DREAM Act legislation this has been the most effective rhetoric used by our opposition.

"Until the laws change illegal is illegal. We need to enforce the law not change it, illegal is illegal. ILLEGAL"

Did you know that there is butter that isn't butter?

If only our valedectorians got as deep a look as butter did. A man can dream.

The attitude expressed in the first part of your post is the most likely reason for the second part of your post to come true.

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