@BrandonWatson Is Listening

It's not just the books, it's the web resources as well (possibly more importantly).

One thing to think about is that if MS is serious about reaching devs like this. Then they need to start understanding the appeal of frameworks that we're using.

The fact that I can start a rails project, edit all the code I want, and run all my tests. Without really investing in any extraneous technology (for instance an IDE or a WebServer or a large testing framework). Are all enormous bonuses. And the fact that I can do that with every modern framework I can think of speaks volumes about the weight that we as a community put on that feature.

You could try to bend all the devs into the MS way of doing things with complex tools and large solutions. Or you could attempt to make tools that fit a modern developer.

Awesome, awesome, awesome feedback. I share your frustration and am working like made to get that religion into our core business.

What some fun: type the following query into bing.com: "Getting Started with .NET" - check where the links take you. Try the same thing with PHP, Erlang, Ruby on Rails, etc.

To be fair, you can answer those questions on the Ruby on Rails site, or through a number of google searches.

> I don't use Ruby on Rails, because -- honestly -- I'm not quite sure what Ruby on Rails means.

Ruby on Rails is an open-source web framework that's optimized for programmer happiness and sustainable productivity. It lets you write beautiful code by favoring convention over configuration. (from http://rubyonrails.org)

> Does it mean using a Mac and TextMate like that guy in those cool screencasts?

TextMate on OS X has long been the favored Rails editor, but the classic editors are still going strong. See VIM for Rails and Emacs for Rails. For a full-on IDE, check out RadRails, RubyMine, 3rd Rail, or Netbeans for Ruby. (from http://rubyonrails.org/download)

> Does it mean Ruby, the language? I don't care about that.

It means writing in Ruby, the language. If you don't care about that fine, but the answer is clear from the get-go.

> Does it mean Rails, the framework? I don't really understand the appeal.

Yes, Rails means Rails as a framework. The appeal (from the website) is being able to write clearer code because in most cases sane defaults are provided.

The rest of your comment is specifically about your experience with one Rails app which I've never used, so I'm leaving that alone.

The point of my comment wasn't to slam .NET. I've got no personal beef, but when someone asks why I don't do current_project as a .NET app I don't know how to respond because I don't know exactly what they mean.

Desire for experience. while there are those developers brazen enough to think their first project will change the world, personally i knew my jr. high coding skills weren't exactly enterprise level. i was more interested in playing with different platforms and exploring their limits / figuring out what works. back then i was playing with ASP (haneng & 4guysfromrolla tutorials) and PHP. ASP seemed more expensive (have to pay for a windows server) and there weren't nearly as many places i could use the code (unless i wanted to do something with a DSN or ActiveX / some other piece of windows infrastructure a kid has little incentive to learn) so eventually i stopped paying attention of ASP. now, years later, seeing what the .NET professional developers at my office fill their days with - i'm glad i didn't learn more of it, lest i'd be doing what they do. no sane person should ever be confronted with DotNetNuke.

It drives me nuts that I have to download Eclipse to write Python code (instead of using Visual Studio). I am on a mission, and my execs have made it clear to me that they are willing to invest in what I am doing, which is awesome. Phase one, start building some trust with the community, and that starts with listening to them. Since I am in the product group (and not our evangelism group), I have direct product and strategy responsibilty. It's a cool role, and I am looking forward to spending more time doing what I love, which is working with devs and hopefully finding ways to make them more productive.