How I work as a digital nomad
typicalprogrammer.com
typicalprogrammer.com
The thought of sitting in a beach hut somewhere warm and sunny, typing away on a MacBook, does certainly sound very appealing. The rest of it - washing your bland travel clothes in a hotel shower with "hotel shampoo" - would surely grow pretty tiresome after a month or two, if you're in any way used to and appreciative of a comfortable lifestyle.
I write this from my "three monitors and a special chair" (quite literally) and I will, in fact, be writing some "brand-new Python code" later...
(I'm also fascinated by this guy's predilection for doing maintenance work and fixing broken projects - I can hardly imagine anything worse!)
Well, staying in the same house/appartment, seeing the same people over and over, commuting in traffic, going to the same office to have meetings the the same PHB, etc etc also involves "all sorts of compromises". Even if you freelance and you don't have the office thing, there's still the rot in your everyday life.
>* The rest of it - washing your bland travel clothes in a hotel shower with "hotel shampoo" - would surely grow pretty tiresome after a month or two, if you're in any way used to and appreciative of a comfortable lifestyle.*
You'd be surprised. I've lived in both kinds of situations (and on/off) and some people just feel great with that too. After all it's just a "first world problem" of the bigger calibre ("oh, I miss my big fridge and and my huge monitor").
But even those "incoveniences" can be overcome if you don't like it. With something like $800/month you can have a huge house in some parts of SE Asia, with a pool, and with your personal assistant to cook, clean the house, wash clothes etc. Better than what most of us have "back at home" actually.
Which parts are that? I'm planning to travel this winter and looking for places to settle for a month or two.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country...
A 3 badroom apt in the city center is around $650 dollars. Outside of center, half that.
There is significantly less traffic than Bangkok and it's much cheaper whilst you can easily buy any imports you might want to make yourself feel at home.
The reason Thailand always comes up in these kinds of discussions is that it is a much better choice than Myanmar, Laos or Cambodia with the possible exception of Vietnam that I can't vouch for since I haven't been. Hospitals are better here than in major Chinese cities and even big expenses such as cars are noticeably cheaper here than in the west because Japanese car companies have factories here.
A big plus is that the weather here is excellent precisely when it turns uncomfortable in the US and Europe.
Also if you have a hardware startup it's very easy to take the 1.5 hour flight to Hong Kong for 65USD and take the MTR to Shenzhen or drive anywhere in Guangdong within a couple of hours.
Internet here is fine if you get your own DSL or Cable connection. SSH connections to Singapore and Hong Kong are very comfortable latency wise.
There are occasional power outages but those don't last long and are easily solved with a UPS.
The only true caveat I can think of is the air pollution, but it's nowhere near Chinese levels, having stayed there for several years.
I'm not sure having a huge house with a pool and a maid could really be considered a nomadic lifestyle. :-)
Yeah. You can always try it later, when the kids grow up and leave (I think the guy in TFA mentions he has already worked for "30 years" in normal offices, which would imply that too). Or can go for a month or so, during they school vacations. You work, and the kids have their holidays in the same remote place. Kids can grow to enjoy travel and its culture -- though I wouldn't take them away from their regular school and friends.
>I'm not sure having a huge house with a pool and a maid could really be considered a nomadic lifestyle. :-)
Well, if you have that house each time in a different city / country, I think it still qualifies!
Beijing has a lot of environmental problems, so it is important to get out often.
My wife and I own a camper. We're not nomads, we take it out on weekends mostly. That said we do spend a fair amount of time in RV parks these days. I'm amazed by the number of young families living full time in RV's. The story is almost always the same: Both parents work in technology and they wanted to see the country while their kids were still young.
In the U.S. almost every RV park has good wifi these days (seriously hotels, why can't you figure this out too?). They work a relatively normal work schedule and travel around at night and during the weekends.
From my observation it's difficult, but by no means impossible.
Here's a great blog from a family of 3 that's doing it:
Not that there's anything generally better about where we live, but because we realized that we had a choice and chose to live where & how we would be happier. And growing up seeing that there are many different ways to live instead of assuming everyone lives in a suburban housing development is probably the best thing we could do for their education.
And BTW, the rural school district we live in is very good if you care about that kind of thing.
I turn into a "digital nomad" every now and then, but I wouldn't consider monitor size a first-world problem. There's just no way to work on a 13" MacBook without ruining your back :( Luckily I have a 24" screen that fits nicely into my suitcase.
Details, please -- particularly about the stand, which is usually the part that is very awkward to transport.
Either just the stand (e.g a VESA style mount) or even the whole monitor, they go for like $300 these days, which if you're gonna stay for 6 months or so makes sense (and you can always sell before leaving -- or leave to someone as a nice gift).
If it's your back you're concerned about, you can get a stand and a bluetooth keyboard. That doesn't have to do with monitor size, just posture.
Actually I have an apartment in Bangkok with maid service. I don't do my own laundry unless I'm staying at a hotel for just a day or two.
The probably isn't necessary. Depending on the locale/hotel, there are probably local laundromats or hotel equivalents.
You might even be able to convince hotel staff to run it through with the hotel sheets if you really wanted to.
> (I'm also fascinated by this guy's predilection for doing maintenance work and fixing broken projects - I can hardly imagine anything worse!)
On the other hand, I don't take too much of an issue with maintenance work and fixing broken projects. The issues that I usually have with these things are when restrictions are placed on me and I end up having to implement half-measures rather than taking the time to do a better job.
If you're prepared to take checked luggage, you can take a lot more clothes with you (or have room to buy more on your travels). Jeans were fine for me in Europe & even Vegas in July, though I'm used to 100F heat in summer.
My own travels taught me that I don't just want a comfortable lifestyle (something you can buy in some version almost anywhere) but a particular variety of comfortable lifestyle - the sort of place within walking distance of a Whole Foods and restaurants that know the right type of glass for each wine varietal.
I might be a total yuppie, but at least I'm a self-aware yuppie, and I appreciate my surroundings a whole lot more than I used to.
I find that it's the best of both world, I have time to discover any country I move to and really get to know the culture. It's also much easier on my clients because it's easy for them to know how to reach me and I'm sure I always have a good internet connection.
One thing I do recommend though is getting an expat health insurance like GMC, BUPA, A+, AETNA, ... It's a bit of an expense (I'm in my 30s and pay $220/month with a deductible of $1200/year for coverage anywhere in the world except Canada and US) but I think it's important for the peace of mind that it procures.
I'm currently working remotely through some extremely lucky means (Company I worked with full-time let me work remotely for a year) and I would love to continue doing this full-time.
My biggest hurdle is finding a company that is interested in hiring a junior-intermediate remote worker. I just recently officially graduated and only have 2 years of 'real' experience and it seems most companies that offer remote work are looking for workers with 5+ years of experience.
When did you start this lifestyle? Do you find the benefits outweigh the positives? How do you balance having a family/wife/children?
I still continued to do a bit of work for my previous company but it was actually very difficult finding new clients and if I were to do it again I'd recommend not doing what I did.
It took me about a year before I found new clients with enough work to support me. Part of the reason for that is that it took me a while before I could actually force myself to work productively at home without anyone breathing down my neck. I found my clients with a combination of blog post and contributions to open source projects.
I don't have a family and children, I have a girlfriend who does remote work as a graphic designer so it works out well for us.
I really like the life I have now but it's true that it's not for everyone, working at home is not easy for a lot of people (I do recommend checking out local co-working spaces for this). You also have to enjoy spending time learning new languages and trying to adapt to a culture that's different from your own. Moving to a new place and getting everything ready can be stressful (I tend to be easy going by nature so that doesn't bother me)
If I had children, I'm not sure what I would do.
I used to split time between NYC and Vietnam. NYC for client work, Vietnam for bootstrapping my publishing platform (shameless plug our eat your own dog food first magazine is coming out soon: http://vimeo.com/100580125). However, for the last year, I've been in Vietnam full time, giving up my apartment in NYC and "relocating" to Nevada for tax purposes. I did this partly because I was getting closer to finishing up the first phase of the publishing project, but also because I found out I was going to be a father ;)
The hardest part is keeping work coming in at a constant enough rate. In NYC I was always booked solid, 24/7, but in Vietnam it comes and goes in spurts. Partly because some of the work I did in NYC has hardware requirements that can't be met here in Vietnam (large retail experiential installs) and partly because business is slow for my main client. Finding new clients to fill the gaps has required some serious email/linkedin networking hustle, but it can be done.
I've had people interested in hiring me for local projects, but I've had a hard time lowering my rates to a level acceptable for both parties. Even though they are regaled by the amount of experience, developing countries might not be so focused on quality over quantity. Which is OK.
If you take the time to get TEFL certification, that's a possible fall back. I'm a college drop out, so that's no bueno.
Anyways, wouldn't trade the experience for anything. YMMV.
I live in a more upscale part of Saigon, so my rent isn't typical. But compared to what I was paying in NYC, it's not a lot. I pay $700 for a 2 bedroom in a high rise, about $100 for electricity. I have fiber internet, 40mbps, which is about $75 a month. 3G on my phone is about $5-10 a month. The sum of all of that is almost a quarter of what I was paying in NYC every month.
If you ever come down to Saigon or I head up to Dalat, let's grab a beer!
The only way I got around this was by building my own platform that brought in clients. I teach the LSAT, and chose to live in Montreal. It's French, not a major city for English speaking law school admissions.
NYC is the major market. I would have been booked solid if I lived there. But I likely also would have hit a local maximum, doing lots of $200 an hour tutoring and teaching $1200 classroom courses.
Instead, I had to develop products to reach students in the USA. Eventually ended up taking a page from Michael Hartl's business model and released a version of my books here:
http://lsathacks.com/explanations/
Now a lot of people find my site and I get tutoring requests organically. I'm about to do nine hours today (I just consult Saturdays).
Not everyone should do this of course – it's a lot of work to create your own product or marketing platform. Local work of mouth and advertising is SO much easier.
But for anyone considering a transition abroad, think about reaching prospects who google solutions.
This site does something simliar for the SAT, he has two well selling books as well:
So seeing as that's out the window you'll probably end up having to fill the in between good project time with jobs from Elance etc . Be prepared to deal with some horrible code :)
I think the important thing is to make a human connection... So that you and the client both feel like you're working with another human, and not just some online persona. Meeting in person certainly helps, but so do Skype calls and some personal banter (but keep it professional).
Although I work state-side and only went overseas once while "on the clock," I could grab my 25L backpack, leave tomorrow, and spend the week working from Colombia without any problems.
If you want to do projects from scratch or work for startups that's a different situation, and you probably would need to participate with a team. For the kind of work I do it's not important where I am or what I'm wearing.
He's right about the high demand for maintenance contracts. The majority of my client base comes from this exact story.
In fact, you can make a lot of money just finding a bad or prima-dona developer that specializes in the same technologies as you, and cleaning up the wake of destruction they create.
Can anyone here make some recommendations from experience?
I feel like I'd need to be a 'rockstarninjahacker' before taking remote jobs and being able to complete them (and demand enough to pay for this lifestyle)
But feeling like you need to be a rockstarninjahacker is garbage. Many of my clients have no idea how to evaluate my code. The question is - can you get it done? On time? At price? to get to that point - it's do we trust you? Working on your communication skills will probably get you much further than improving your technical skills for finding/keeping freelance work.
[1] - http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/cmmn/rsdncy-eng.html [2] - http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ndvdls/nnrs-eng.html#tx...
To avoid Swedish tax, you have to either pay taxes in the country you are living in or prove that you no longer have any lasting connection to Sweden (no partner or children there, no house or apartment and no ownership in any companies).
Which is not hard at all: Don't have kids there, house or ownership. And you're free from taxes
But you are right that it doesn't seem to hard, so I looked into it some more. I think the main problem would be to prove that you are not living in Sweden (the burden of proof is on you for the first 5 years). It seems that the requirement for not permanently living in Sweden is to permanently live somewhere else - perpetually traveling the world doesn't seem to be enough, you have to prove that you are a resident somewhere else, usually by applying for residence and paying taxes there...
Perhaps in Russia it's a bit... easier?
It might be perfectly legal for Russian nationals. Since I am not Russian, I do not know with certainty, which is why I ask if you had checked with an expert.
May be it stems from the fact that I don't live in the same country as theirs or their skepticism about my claims but I am interested in knowing how exactly this thing works and where I am wrong?
Try looking at job postings and filtering down by jobs that have been open for an extended period of time (while means they might be hard to fill). Figure out who the hiring manger is for the position and reach out to them (you won't have much luck if you go through HR).
Could be the pitch. Reak estate agents don't care for buzzwords like "responsive" (like they didn't care for "HTML5" or "semantic"), and they might think they are already sleek enough (especially if they get the number of customers they want through those sites).
As a (infrequent) user of real estate sites I also could not care less for responsive (I won't search for a house from my phone, and most any site designed for the desktop looks good as is in my iPad too) or sleek (just show me the facts I need and some good pictures of the real estate).
They could be persuaded if they have business benefits from the change. And perhaps real estate guys already do well. Perhaps check some business with a bad website that doesn't do as well -- where a better site could make a different.
To sell to real estate agents, you need to figure out what problems real estate agents think they have. They consider how those problems, or perceived problems, can be solved with your skills.
(I don't mean "perceived problems" as a pejorative. It's often difficult to know in advance what will actually be of business value)
- stay at each place for minimum of three weeks. It takes some time to find stores, internet connectivity, meet people etc...
- make list of stuff you are not going to do, it simplifies your choices.
- consider to travel with luggage. I carry old 22" display in my :-)
just because you don’t agree with certain laws, doesnt mean you can just ignore them.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/australians-in-thailand-face-vis...
And it's actually quite difficult to do remote work or establish permanent residence legally in Thailand:
http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/StickmanWeeklyColumn2013/Thai...
Anyone who wants to legitimately live in Thailand or work here can jump through the hoops, it's easier than most places. The crackdown is mostly aimed at migrant laborers from Cambodia and Myanmar, and at backpackers who spend their time in Thailand drinking and smoking pot.
That's an understatement if I've ever heard one.
I skimmed the linked page and this little gem jumped out:
"Some support a Thai partner and kids, perhaps their own kids, perhaps their partner's from a previous relationship. Throughout Pattaya, Isaan and the north thousands, maybe tens of thousands, fit this profile - and they could be shut out."
I dont profess to be an expert on all things Thai, but after 2 years here, that sentence tells me plenty. You could equally describe exactly the same group of foreigners with much fewer words: "retiree sexpat".
> Anyone who wants to legitimately live in Thailand or work here can jump through the hoops
This is absolutely true. I went through the process while the protests + failed election were going on, and the biggest hassle was departments being closed/relocated, and road closures while heading to meetings with our lawyer in BKK.
Strange that the military seems to think most of Visa runners are English teachers, though.
[1]: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Immigration-Bur...
[2]: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/754033-immigration-burea...
Probably just the most visible. From what I understand, plenty of schools rely on foreign english teachers but aren't prepared to hire them legally.
I'm still not really sure why they don't go the legal route - maybe the extra effort involved, or maybe because they want to pay less than the mandated minimum salary for foreigners.
For those not familiar, minimum salary is not standard across the board in Thailand, it depends on nationality. For most "western" foreigners it's 50K THB/month, whereas for Thai citizens it's about 9K THB/month.
The laws around digital nomads, to say nothing of enforcement, have never been clear in Thailand. Bans on foreigners working in any country are intended to prevent foreigners taking jobs away from locals. Digital nomads don't do that.
As it turns out just this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand:
http://asiancorrespondent.com/125980/thai-immigration-offici...
You still need a visa, of course.
In context, you are clearly talking about working for local companies. In countries like Thailand, it's illegal to work in any way (even volunteering falls into this category in Thailand) without a valid visa and work permit.
> have never been clear in Thailand
That's disingenuous at best. Its never been "ideal" but it's always been clear - if you want to work, you need a visa + work permit. That people working "online" for foreign entities have largely slipped through the cracks is irrelevant. Speeding isn't legal or "unclear" just because you don't get caught every time.
> this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand:
Since i first started looking at the options for working in Thailand about 2 1/2 years ago (and moved here ~ 2 years ago) I've read numerous articles about these announcements from provincial immigration staff, only to have them either "clarified" to mean something different, or outright denied as being incorrect.
For a more realistic example: it is perfectly legal for a foreigner to come to Thailand on a business visa (without a work permit) for the purpose of meetings. There is even a specific 3 year (vs regular 1 year) business visa that is specifically designed for this situation (it cannot be used to get a work permit).
The "traditional" situation is evident in other things too - for a marriage visa, there is a means test ($/month income or $$ in a bank account) - the amount required is vastly more for foreign men (marrying thai women) than it is for women (marrying thai men).
In terms of a theoretical "this is intentional" answer - I don't know, because I don't actually know what the average "digital nomad" would spend large amounts of money on - I'm living basically as a resident, I haven't left the country in 9 months, we have a car, imported our dog, etc.
In Thailand pornography and sex toys and prostitution are all illegal, but visibly sold on the main tourist streets. In Thailand driving without a license will get you a small fine ($6 to $12), and a receipt to show you paid in case you get stopped in the next 24 hours. In Thailand there are numerous digital nomad get-togethers and communities and co-working spaces full of farang with their laptops, operating openly. The many language schools routinely employ part-time teachers who don't have proper visas and work permits.
As an American I've been trained to obey the law, and I understand that breaking the law leads to well-defined penalties (unless I'm a banker or a politician). Thais, on the other hand, treat the law (and road markings) as suggestions, with penalties that have flexible and often on-the-spot enforcement denominated in baht. So while you are right about what the law says, the reality of how it's interpreted and enforced are more important in Thailand.
Generalising about 70 million people as if they are all the same isn't a great way to identify as anything other than a middle-aged farrang who wants a young brown girl(s) in his bed.
If anyone wants to read more of this kind of thing there's an entire forum for know-it-all expat jerks called ThaiVisa.com.
Maybe I'm generalizing about the Thai attitude about the law, but you can observe it every day all over Thailand. It's no more a generalization than saying Thais like spicy food.
No but you suggested that they can be treated as non existent because of lax enforcement/punishment, and then go on to complain about other people (apparently an entire country at that!) not following them - if you don't agree the laws should be followed, why are you complaining about other people not following them?
> How you went from my observations of life in Thailand to calling me a sexpat says something about you
It's generally sexpats who come to Thailand for some "brown strange", make no effort to learn anything about the culture or the people, and make sweeping generalisations, exactly like you have done.
> Maybe I'm generalizing about the Thai attitude about the law, but you can observe it every day all over Thailand. It's no more a generalization than saying Thais like spicy food.
The irony here is at level: ridiculous. Have you ever met any Thai people and actually spoken to them?
Let me make it crystal clear in case you can't work it out:
Not every Thai is a bad driver
Not every Thai flaunts laws/rules
Not every Thai enjoys or can even eat spicy food
Not every Thai is just a poor brown girl/boy waiting for a "rich" white prince to make her/his life better.
Also I can't read or "work out" what smarter and better-informed people like stephenr mean, I need it spelled out, in English. I am not equipped to understand or respond to the close reading and careful parsing of language stephenr has demonstrated.
Actually I've never even been to Thailand, I made everything up. Kudos to stephenr for deducing so much from my comments and exposing me, calling me out on my delusions, and setting the record straight.
You didn't claim to have "seen this". You claimed "everyone does it". This would be like me claiming all americans insist on cheese with every meal and get confused between Austria and Australia.
> Also I can't read or "work out" what smarter and better-informed people like stephenr mean, I need it spelled out, in English
I'm commenting on your posts, and my own observations of life in Thailand. Several times you've made broad generalisations about various topics in Thailand, all of which are demonstrably false.
When I called you on said generalisation, you proceeded to make ANOTHER generalisation. How do you expect people to react to that?
It's different. You've just listed laws that the Thais do not enforce. The no-work-permit for a foreigner is a law that would be enforced should you be caught.
That was one officer in Chiang Mai and he's been corrected since.
The work he does doesn't relate to Thailand at all. Do you think if someone is going to stay in Thailand for 2 weeks and work online, they'll going to get a work visa? For what? Where's a company? People? Office? For 2 weeks? And they'll have to do the same thing for any country they go? That's bunk!
He doesn't break a law working online! unless he receives money to a Thai bank.
2) According to you, if a businessman comes to Thailand to rest for 2 weeks and decided to do some work for one day on his laptop (which he brought with him) then he'll become a criminal and can be taken to a jail.
3) According to you, millions of people break this law every day: they come from their countries to other country and once they reply or send an email (or something like that) - they are criminals!!!
Not according to me. The law says what it says. The chances of being arrested for working one day while on holiday are pretty much zero, but technically it's still a breach of the law.
Even someone who comes for a month and works every day has very little chance of being caught or even being an issue the police would be concerned about/investigating, but that doesn't mean what they're doing is legal.
You seem to somehow think that because this law is in place in Thailand, I'm suggesting it is in place elsewhere? Why? I never mentioned any country but Thailand.
2) Why not? That's exactly according to you. If not, tell me what it is that goes against your definition.
3) Because in !every country! in order to work you need a work visa unless this is your home country.
Also, and this is a big point I have to add, it's easy enough to get around with basic english here unlike China for example.
To the parent: for some (particularly either young and unattached, or middle aged/older unattached men) the attraction is likely somewhat related to what they do besides work.
> "at least a small amount or number of people or things"
Edit: furthermore, if you think that the presence of sexpats, or the way some Thai people are "attracted" to them/their wallets, is disparaging to NORMAL Thai people, you are deluded.
I don't ever remember anyone ever saying all American women are gold diggers because of Anna Nicole Smith's antics.
You caught me by surprise. I actually expected the trolling to be about my choice of a MacBook or mentioning I use vim. Live and learn.
It's well known that the parts of Thailand frequented by tourists have a much higher percentage of people who "can" speak english. By "can" I mean are technically able to, and feel confident enough to.
Why, is that populated with people who can't comprehend English too?
Please lookup the definition of the word "some".
"either young and unattached, or middle aged/older unattached men" implies either men in their late teens/early twenties or men 40+.
I guess it was too much to expect people to actually understand what words mean.
I'm surprised by the number of people that try to get clients, as far as reaching out to "random" real estate agencies for work.
Out of curiosity, what makes that the preferred way over trying to get a single employer that allows you to work remotely part-time?
I agree that it might be slightly more difficult initially, but IMO it's worth it as you don't have to deal with having to get new clients, manage with your current ones. I actually got really lucky that I find my company as it put enough faith in me as a recent college grad.
IMO, the only reason for me to take on new clients is for a significantly higher rate?
We've had folks on the move quite a bit in the past (including traveling around in an RV). The biggest issue is that they tend not to be quite as plugged in as everyone else. Internet connections always seem to be spotty and there always seems to be other issues tugging at their attention (finding places to work, exploring, etc..).
That doesn't mean they produced bad work (often it was very good), but it came at the expense of the rest of the team. When we needed them to answer a question or hop into a quick discussion they often weren't around. It's just a bad dynamic as far as the rest of the team goes.
We do hire contractors for very specific and targeted projects. In that mode nomads are just fine! They don't need to fit into the broader team in a meaningful way and there is no expectation that they will. They come in for a few weeks or months and then move on. It works well and both sides are really happy with the arrangement.
Point being, you might have better luck both finding a job and being successful at it if you're looking less for full-time roles and more for contract positions that complement the type of lifestyle you want to pursue.