Conjecture Regarding Larger iPhone Displays | Hacker News Reader

Conjecture Regarding Larger iPhone Displays

daringfireball.net

51 pointsrkudeshi34 comments

Okay, I'm not trying to be a dick here. But everytime when I see the rumor about the screen size of iPhone 6, it always remind me how Gruber and Jim Dalrymple, two of the biggest Apple fans on the internet, mock the screen size of Samsung Note before.

Note became instantly popular in Asia area and I always thought there are big market for big phones. I even argued with Jim on his G+ saying there are someone who genuinely likes it, they could not believe.

Yes, of course, the 4 inches iPhone is perfect. THERE IS NO OTHER SIZE COULD FIT BETTER IN HUMAN"S HAND. Right? Right?

How times change.

refs:

1 Why Apple should sidestep the ‘Phablet’: http://www.loopinsight.com/2013/03/12/why-apple-should-sides... 2 Samsung Galaxy Note and a Radio Flyer wagon: http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/02/08/samsung-galaxy-note-an... 3 Galaxy Note is so big it’s in a timezone of its own: http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/02/15/galaxy-note-is-so-big-... 4 Samsung’s Galaxy Note Is the Most Useless Phone Jonathan Geller Has Ever Used: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/02/15/geller-galaxy-no... 5 Samsung’s Super-Sized Galaxy Note: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/02/15/techblock-galaxy...

To be fair, one of the reasons that I went back from the galaxy was because I actually preferred the smaller phone. I have a friend who was happy with his 4S but bought a 5S because he was afraid he wouldn't have the option of a smaller phone.

I'm not saying big screen is for everyone. I'm simply pointing out how stubborn and blind they were.

They were not defending small screen. They were basically saying big screen is useless, stupid, and bad fit for your hand if you are normal human.

Oh well.

it is a bad fit for your hand if you're a normal human

I am over 6 feet and I can't hit the corners of my nexus 5 with a single hand. I've had to rearrange app icons on my home screen to be able to switch between spotify and google maps while driving. For a 5' tall person probably the top inch of the phone -- notably where the status screen comes from -- is inaccessible with one hand.

Personally, I'll never use a smaller phone again. I use a lot less of my tablet since getting my nexus 5; in practice, it's big enough that reading on it doesn't suck.

Please - don't hold your phone while driving. It's incredibly dangerous for you and other people on the road.

If you absolutely have to interact with your phone while also steering a couple of tonnes of metal around, please spend a couple of bucks on a dashboard holder.

I own a Nexus 5 which is a pretty big phone by American standards. I just spent the last few days in Korea. My phone would be considered small here. Lots of Note sized phones here. I saw kids watching TV and movies on the train or multi-tasking running two apps at the same time. It was pretty impressive and I'm sure the giant batteries in those things is a nice little perk.

Next to them sat the occasional iPhone owner who was doing basic Facebook duty or playing simple games. I'm sure Apple is feeling a lot of pressure in Asia to move to a bigger screen.

Before Korea, last week I was in Japan, and didn't see this large of a percentage of big screen phones, but I saw lots of iPad minis out on the train and elsewhere while phones were safely kept in pocket. I think once people get a taste of a larger screen its hard to go back to the tiny 4" world. Sadly, this exposes the cult of personality Apple enthusiasts often partake of. 4" was perfect because Jobs and some psuedoscience said so. Now its not. I'm getting a little sick of these loudmouth guys who think perfection is achievable. Popular technology has a lot more in common with fashion than engineering. Wish these guys understood this and stopped putting their foot in their mouths, not that this is going to hurt Gruber's ad impressions. Being a dramatic soapbox-like loudmouth seems to be very profitable for bloggers. Why do we always gravitate to the Perez Hilton's of the tech world instead of more informed and moderate voices? Is fandom always irrational and will always reward those who know how to play the lowest common denominator?

I was really hesitant to get one of those large phones, but my last trip to Korea and a visit by some friends here convinced me that like usual, Korea is living in the future w/r to portable electronics.

So I just got a Note and it's possibly one of the most liberating personal electronic devices I've gotten since my first smart phone. The Samsung software sucks as usual, but once you get things set up (taking all of half an hour) it's easily the best mobile device on the market right now.

So what's your point? For what it's worth, Gruber is on record as not going to buy the 5.5" version, as it's too large (the Talk Show podcasts of recent weeks). He also still believes that the smaller form factor is better, but as Apple doesn't appear to be continuing the 4" line, what's a guy like Gruber, who is all-in on Apple, supposed to do? Not talk about Apple?

Better to say I expect to prefer the 4.7 over the 5.5-inch phone, personally. But I would never say I won't buy a product before I've actually seen it in person.

(I have seen other 5.5-inch phones, though, and none seem like something I'd want to carry in my pocket everywhere.)

Ahhh, sorry John, I didn't want to put words in your mouth, but I wrote that post on my phone, so I went with a shorter version of you without the caveats / conditions that you mentioned. My bad...

4" is still the perfect on-the-go smartphone size. Apple has not been wrong about that.

But 4" is too small if it is the only device you have, if you use your device both as your mobile and as a PC or tablet. This has been Apple's blind spot, exacerbated by their focus on higher income customers who can afford multiple devices.

Much of the rest of the world cannot afford multiple expensive devices.

Much of today's youth are mobile only by choice. Since they text rather than make calls, and almost always have headphones with them, the awkwardness of putting a large device to their ear is a non-issue.

I think it's quite natural to base your thinking on your current use case. In the 90s we had a discussion about something involving SMS on IRC, and soon suddenly pretty much all the american people decided it was the most stupid thing they've ever heard of and such a thing could never take off in the US.

These were gadget happy geeks on IRC mind you. There are also the famous Slashdot iPod comments. Once the apple fans have gotten used to the larger screens they will think it was the way Jobs intended.

This can be seen again and again in everything from politics to religion .. to tech (which is not far from either nowadays, right?).

Here's what I wrote two years ago, when the iPhone 5 shipped:

  > There is no argument that some people really do like these big
  > closer-to-5-than-4-inch Android and Windows phones. I was in a
  > Verizon retail store yesterday (long story; don’t ask) and
  > overheard a relatively small woman buying a Galaxy S III. A
  > companion asked if she wasn’t worried that it was too big, and she
  > said no, big was exactly what she wanted, because she doesn’t have
  > a tablet and wanted to do a lot of reading on whatever phone she
  > got. She even said she was thinking about the 5-inch Galaxy Note
  > (which Verizon doesn’t carry). It was like a conversation out of a
  > Samsung commercial. Such people surely think the iPhone 5’s
  > display remains too small. But, trust me, there are going to be
  > many long-time iPhone users complaining that it’s too big after
  > they upgrade.
  >
  > In an ideal world, perhaps Apple would offer two iPhone sizes --
  > like they do with products such as MacBook Pros, MacBook Airs, and
  > iMacs. A smaller one with the classic 3.5-inch display, and a
  > larger (say, 4.5-inch?) one for people who want that.

http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/iphone_5

That holds up pretty well, but I undershot the two sizes by an inch apiece.

Also, I haven't said whether I think a 5.5-inch iPhone is actually any good, because, duh, I haven't even seen one yet, let alone used one.

I was just discussing the screen size rumors with an iPhone 5 user yesterday, and you're spot on with the complaints about it being too big.

On his 3g (or maybe 3gs?) you could hold it one handed and reliably reach the whole screen with your thumb. One the iPhone 5's larger screen that's no longer true.

Apple's certainly aware of this problem, so even if they launch a bigger screened version I can't imagine they'll dropping the form factor of the 5s any time soon. But I'm curious to see how they'll market it.

Limiting iPhones to a single size has always let them control the touchscreen experience, but they'll have a lot of people buying phones with a worse experience because they don't think about the downsides of a larger screen.

Apple's always made it their business to make as many design decisions as possible for their users, and it's worked out well for their OSes and devices. I'm betting some people there aren't happy about giving this one up.

Gruber is a notorious shill. Daringfireball is about the only thing on HN I regularly flag because it's usually such brain free cheer leading drivel. But on occasion the analysis is good even if his introspection and self-awareness isn't.

His function in the technology news media is almost exactly like a political pundit, he sets the talking points and they'll reverberate around the Apple-sphere for years even they've long stopped making any kind of sense.

I didn't flag this one because for what it's worth, it's a decent approach and analysis and technically possible.

What's not said here is of course the denouncement that he's now obliged to make against the larger format phone (after towing the line for so many years that bigger phones are the worst thing since the last mass extinction event) and the writeup about how this entire kind of analysis is necessary because of weaknesses in Apple's approach to handling different screen size and resolutions that only now being solved.

That's an abuse of flagging. I wouldn't be surprised if the moderators have your flags going straight to /dev/null because you're using it to mark earnest content you disagree with.

No it's not. Read the guidelines. Half the garbage he writes is just fanboyism and doesn't even meet the "interesting" criteria. In fact, similar fawning crap by other writers are even autokilled, but because Gruber writes about Apple his stuff lives on.

I hope Apple segments their phones and makes smaller screens as well. I want something small enough that it practically disappears in my pocket. My ideal phone would be the size of a 4th-gen iPod Nano.[1]

Business-wise, large screens make a lot of sense. Most people want them. They're great for people with poor eyesight, especially older people who won't admit they need bifocals. Women usually carry purses, so comfortably fitting in a small pocket isn't an issue. And of course, larger screens look better side-by-side. A lot of consumers are enticed by the immediate appeal of a larger screen. They forget they'll have to lug around a heavier phone that is harder to hold.

I've looked around, but I haven't been able to find any smartphone that's as small as an iPod Nano. If anyone has suggestions, I'm all ears.

1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IPod_Nano_4G_black_c...

If @3x is a thing, wouldn't 1080p be kind of an Occam's Razor resolution for a 4.7 device?

Besides the fact that 1080p is common and marketable, it would be the perfect resolution to mirror to an AppleTV.

And having both the 4.7 & 5.5 phones be @3x would motivate developers more to add @3x assets. If the 5.5 phone is the only @3x device in Apple's lineup for a while, it might be tempting not to invest.

And then a 4K (3840x2160) at @3x might be perfect for a 12.x inch iPad. That would mirror perfectly to 1080p or 4K TVs. It would be 16x9, which is hard to imagine, but mirroring to projectors might be more important for a 12" iPad than the smaller ones? I could really see it used in presentations and education.

I say go with the standard resolutions when in doubt, even though there is no real Apple precedent.

(edit to add content)

I know I'm in a small minority here (at least, judging by the years of clamor for larger iPhones), but I almost always use my iPhone one-handed, so I'm very skeptical about any larger display. Currently, when holding it in a relaxed position, my thumb can reach a bit to the left of or above the current display, but not both - there would probably be a difficult to reach zone in the top left corner. A larger size would also make my grip less stable.

To be fair, I don't have that much actual experience with larger phones, but I did switch to a Galaxy S4 for a few weeks last year, and while it wasn't completely unusable one handed or anything, the unwieldiness of doing so was one of the things that made me happy to get my iPhone back. But it looks like I'll soon be left behind if I want to continue using iOS...

I totally agree. The thing that makes iOS even worse for larger screen sizes than the bad experience on Android is that iOS icons auto-align themselves about in the worse possible place, the top left of the screen.

I've argued with a somewhat prominent advocate of certain touch behaviors, but it simply makes far more sense that interactive elements be ordered by priority from the bottom of the screen where they are most accessible by one handed users.

I'm with you. I would still gladly take an iPhone 5s with the 3:2 form factor screen from the iPhone 4s.

Same.

Yeah, one-handed use is one of the best things about the iPhone. I switched to Android (Moto X) several months ago from an iPhone 5s. I've been using it one-handed, but it is really painful. By the afternoon I start getting cramps in my thumb. Reaching for the home/keyboard/app menu/etc buttons is just really awkward. And the Moto X is one of the smallest screen Android phones you can get.

Part of it is that Android just isn't designed for one-handed use, but the limited width is a big part of it too.

A thought just occurred to me: if the subpixel geometry is based on multiple of 2 on a "3x" pixel device (say, moving from rgb to "pentile"), that would allow for "sharp" rendering of "2x" assets if everything was arranged appropriately.

Just a random anecdote, but I was in a T-Mobile store a couple of weeks ago, and I overheard some random woman looking at phones. When she saw the iPhone, her immediate reaction was: "Ew, oh my god, the screen is so tiny! That's awful!"

I've gotten a similar reaction: I was asked why my iPhone was so small by my gf's mom, who is (apparently) not very familiar with smartphones.

I don't think I want a larger phone, but I can understand why Apple might make them.

So what is then the rationale for the "bigger" variant not being also 326 DPI? That would give something like 1562 x 878 display for the 5.5 inch one. Less pixels, therefore faster. The difference between 326 and 461 DPI is most probably not discernible for most of the people.

Another advantage: not needing one more target resolution of the resources. And another: no need for the new scale for the pixel masks by production.

Gruber does mention his rationale for not using a resolution that's close to this. Under "Other Resolutions" he says:

  1564 × 880 is feasible for a 5.5-inch phone.
  That’s what you get if you maintain the 326
  pixels-per-inch density and @2x scale. This
  would increase area — the number of points
  displayed on screen — by a whopping 89 percent.
  But it wouldn’t increase the size of what you
  see at all. I think the sweet spot for a
  5.5-inch phone requires you see to more content
  and to make what you see at least a little bit
  bigger. So that’s why I’d bet against 1564 × 880.
 (1564 × 880 would be implausible for the 4.7-inch
  phone: it would render UI elements and text 15
  percent smaller than all previous iPhones.)

Thanks. To "see more content" is actually fulfilled with 1564 × 880. To "make what you see at least a little bit bigger" (seems he thinks that the icons and the text should be visually bigger when holding the phone in front of you at the same distance as before? why? it's still a phone) results either in needing the new resources or leaving the pixel perfectness (which won't happen for Apple) -- I don't buy it. But let's see if he actually got the insider information about something so non-obvious.

Wouldn't it be cool if they made 5" model just to screw with rumors and then release something entirely different.

This article would be awesome with some mockups. Gruber's next "and another thing" in these incredible what-ifs could be some DF artwork. (BTW does anybody else drop their large-screen phone a lot or is it just me? I really love the extra screen space but holding onto it is not as easy as it was with a smaller phone)

I think now that retina is widely adopted, Apple no longer needs to worry about 2x, 3x, etc.

Even if the phones are 1.457x or whatever, I bet iOS8 will just do its best to scale elements as needed- Since the resolutions are so high already, a scaling error of a fraction of a retina pixel is totally not noticeable.

> a scaling error of a fraction of a retina pixel is totally not noticeable.

Wat?

For a photo it can be acceptable. Not great, but acceptable. For UI elements, it is horrible. Smudgy, blurry edge makes no one happy.

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