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Comment by onion2k | Hacker News Reader

I wouldn't be surprised if it was China either, but I would also argue that it's very likely used in the production of goods that aren't consumed by the Chinese. This sort of pollution is a side effect of western demand for cheap goods coupled to poorly regulated Chinese production. As such, responsibility for the problem is only partly down to the Chinese.

First world consumers have to demand ethically produced, environmentally friendly goods in order to fix these problems, instead of saying "We want it as cheap as possible but the result of that isn't our problem."

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I don't disagree with you, but part of the reason first world consumers demand cheap Chinese products is because many of their middle-class-income-producing jobs have been exported to China and various third-world countries, so they can't afford the ethically produced environmentally friendly goods anymore.

What the first world consumers need is to bring manufacturing back to the first world, so they can get jobs that pay enough to buy the products they help manufacture.

That, or basic income, if first world labor is no longer needed because manufacturing has become too efficient.

Manufacturing jobs have fallen not production.

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?graph_id=177007...

That seems to show production, not employment.

The US is making more stuff than ever before, but it's taking less people to do it.

Americans have access to so many social safety nets. I find it hard to believe they would buy ethically produced products had they more money.

Also America doesn't need to trade with China, but it does anyway.

| America doesn't need to trade with China, but it does anyway.

America certainly needs to trade with China these days. Our economy cannot support costlier manufacturing these days

IMO our "costlier manufacturing" would be capital intensive but not high amortized cost.

If we didnt have trade relations with China we'd automate the terrible jobs that we get chinese citizens to do for low wages. I believe the only reason we export work is because once you include capital cost (upfront investments) its cheaper/easier to have a human do it.

Of course, there'd be some ramp up time required where our stuff would be really expensive. Its going to happen anyways as Chinese citizens become more and more affluent and demand the middle class life of the rich world.

I agree but even with the upfront costs of automating, where do you think the automation hardware is going to come from?

I'd say that's the very reason the upfront costs are high. We dont get good automation technology from China, so we have to manufacture it here. Thus its expensive up front.

+1 to [basic income](http://hypertexthero.com/logbook/2014/07/why-should-we-suppo...).

From your link:

> the reality of the situation is that people are presently working too much

You don't fix this by giving people basic income. You fix this by making things cheaper so people don't have to work so much to make a living. Many necessities in our society have prices artificially inflated by various government policies (for example, farm subsidies artificially inflate the price of food). Adding another government policy (basic income) won't fix that.

The Internet has made copying and the transport of bits cost nothing.

This efficiency has also now moved to other industries, like manufacturing, because communication has become so easy.

I recall many people here saying that the record industries need to deal with it or die. Now that this same thing has started to effect your bottom line (or the bottom line of people you might care about), we need government sanctions to make up for the lost revenue.

Instead, I say we just deal with what has happened, like any other business model destroyed by technology (horse and buggy?!). Manufacturing jobs are gone. It's time to learn a new skill and figure out what will make you a living.

A basic income is not sustainable. It will only force legitimate businesses out of the US (which means less jobs) because of the higher taxes. These taxes will also only increase over time, because more and more people will start relying on it as a way to live.

The truth hurts. Especially to butt-hurt engineers on HN.

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