The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany | Hacker News Reader

The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

washingtonpost.com

116 pointsfelixbraun87 comments

The various sides of the immigration debate are talking past each other. This article describes a German program that takes high skill people like the architect profiled in the article, while those opposed to immigration are mainly concerned about the large numbers of low-skill people who are not interested in assimilating. The anti-immigrant folks in Britain and France aren't worried about Mr. Pinol. They're worried about the people who want to self-govern according to Sharia law inside a western country.

As for the U.S., the key difference with Germany is that our fertility rate is 1.89 (over 2.1 during the boom). Theirs is 1.36 (under 1.4 since 1990).

The article does talk about African laborers and Bulgarian demolition crews. Not high-skilled work. Also "Angela Merkel... has spoken out against immigrants relocating here merely to tap generous domestic welfare benefits."

You're right that masses of low-skill immigrants is a problem, especially when they are not integrating with society. It seems Germany has this problem too ("And many Germans still call the lack of assimilation among Turkish immigrants a leading national problem.").

Your score is bouncing quite heavily, indicating that this is a controversial comment. You're not wrong though. The question I still have after reading the article is, how is Germany dealing with the low-skill immigration (or how effective is their vocation training and welfare system)? Can the US or UK implement similar plans with any success?

The Turkish "problem" is longstanding and kind on both sides as well. Many Turks are not that sure if they want to integrate into German society, and many Germans are not sure if they want them to either (though this sentiment is weaker than it once was). That produces a self-reinforcing situation.

Many of the current Turkish residents came during the 1960s as part of a guest-worker program [1], or are descended from those who did. The expectation was that they would be temporary workers (no path to citizenship) and eventually go home again. The program was closed in 1973, and the government spent much of the late '70s and '80s trying to encourage them to leave, more than encouraging them to integrate. There are many kids who've grown up 100% in Germany (some grandkids too) who aren't German citizens, and until very recently, were not encouraged to become citizens. (Germany does not have jus soli citizenship, and before a reform in 1999, it was also very difficult for someone not of German descent to naturalize.)

The fact that many Turks in Germany come from poor and highly conservative regions of Turkey (generally not Istanbul) doesn't help assimilation, of course. But it also doesn't help that the message for decades was that they aren't German and can't become German. And non-integration is complex, too. When Americans think of unintegrated Mexican immigrants, for example, they think first and foremost of Spanish speakers who can't speak English. But almost all the Turks considered unintegrated do speak German. Some (especially younger generations) don't even speak Turkish fluently (or at all), but only German.

Lots of these aren't German-specific problems, though. Since at least the late 19th century, European counties have been based on the ethnic nation-state, and transitioning to some idea that people can change nationalities, or even have more than one (and what that means) is slow and produces opposition.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter

As a Turk, I don't see the "Turkish problem" as being Germany's fault at all. These people went to Germany on a temporary basis, and decided to just not leave when the guest-worker program ended. In other words, they overstayed their welcome.

Imagine inviting a guest to your house for dinner, and them liking your house a lot and deciding to just move in permanently. Are you then expected to encourage them to put their name on the lease (i.e. become a citizen)? I don't think so.

If it were literally a 3-year temporary visa or something, I'd agree (and they wouldn't be there anymore, because overstaying would lead to deportation). But they didn't illegally overstay. They simply worked in Germany long enough to became German nationals. Partly, because in the EU (formerly European Community), the concept of a long-term "guest" with no rights is just not recognized: if someone lives in your country for years at your invitation, is able to support themselves and not engaged in criminality, and has learned some language/civics basics, they have a right to apply for permanent residency after some period.

I don't think I support the concept of a long-term "guest" with no rights, so I don't think it's wrong that such rights exist. That's what countries like Kuwait or Dubai do, with long-term "guest workers" who don't have legal rights. If someone has lived and worked here (Denmark) for 5 or 8 or 10 years or whatever, I think they should have legal rights on that basis. Much more so if they were born in Denmark; and doubly that if their parents were born in Denmark too, so that it's been two generations since they were immigrants. What is the alternative in that case, deport someone who was born and raised in Denmark to a country only their grandparents were actually from, and whose language they don't even speak?

Can you blame them? As I've heard it told, many of the German employers wanted to hold onto the employees they'd already poured training resources into (and enjoyed working with). Many of the Turks had established families and livelihoods in Germany by the time the guest worker program ended.

>As a Turk, I don't see the "Turkish problem" as being Germany's fault at all. These people went to Germany on a temporary basis, and decided to just not leave when the guest-worker program ended. In other words, they overstayed their welcome.*

Here's how it went down. First, Germany slaughtered and exterminated millions of people, invaded tons of countries, destroyed their infrastructure, commited heinous crimes, etc. What we know as World War II.

After the end of the war, West Germany, as a valueable ally of the West against USSR, got all kinds of help and special treatment to rebuilt its economy. And they started a program for bringing in workers from places they invaded and decimated, like Greece. Those workers, like the involuntary "arbeit mach frei" workers before, were brought to serve as cheap immigrant labor, under exploitative conditions, to assist the very people that had unprovoked invaded their countries and killed their relatives and fellow citizens a decade or so ago. The guest-workers, besides being exploited with lesser wages than Germans and fewer opportunities for advancment (like b-rate citizens) they were also treated with extreme racism and prejudice.

Now, the problem of the Germans (the "they overstayed their welcome") was that these people didn't just disperse when they were done with them, but instead felt that those hard working years in Germany gave them a right to stay and be integrated as full citizens.

Such nerve, huh?

"a program for bringing in workers from places they invaded and decimated" - against their will?

I don't really understand this notion -- I usually get this kind of question from Americans: that if you consent to something, it makes it OK, regardless of the circumstances under which you gave your consent. I think this ideas usually comes from people playing life in "easy mode" (white, well educated, middle or upper middle class), that have never been forced to consent to humilliating or exploitative demands of the kind billions of people often have.

If I burn down your house (and kill your cousin and your Jew neighbors), and you or your kid, starving, accepts to come work for my company, and I treat you like shit on top, that doesn't make it OK in my book.

Maybe my knowledge of history in this area is not sufficient.

Well, Germany never invaded Turkey. If anything, they were way too cosy during WW2.

> You're right that masses of low-skill immigrants is a problem, especially when they are not integrating with society.

Turks aren't that much of a problem anymore. These days, the massive influx of refugees (unanticipated by our stupid politicians) are the biggest problem. We lock 'em in overcrowded camps, prohibit them from working for 9 months and then wonder why trouble arises.

Fuck our politicians. The way the entire EU treats refugees is disgusting.

>unanticipated by our stupid politicians

...how sure are you about the whole "unanticipated" thing?

http://nationalinterest.org/print/article/dead-souls-the-den...

That's US stuff, I don't deal much with US politics. Our (German) politicians chose to ignore the growing numbers and problems, instead opting to mistreat refugees in order to deter others from coming.

Brave New World.

The "issue" with the turkish really cooled down in the last maybe 20 years. Over 50% of young people in Germany already say that Islam belongs to Germany.

>Over 50% of young people in Germany already say that Islam belongs to Germany.

What does that mean?

the phrase in German is "Der Islam gehört zu Deutschland" -- which means something like Islam has a place in Germany.

The above translation should probably just be "belongs in" rather than "belongs to" then. Your clarification helped, thanks.

That's not true, I did a Ph.D in France, I was an assistant professor, and was stopped and fully body searched by the police at the train station for the only reason I am dark skinned. Not only did it end there, even after they saw my papers and called the university, I was let go, but the pack leader had to yell at me that France is not a place for me.

Affraid of Low skilled ppl ? No! Affraid of difference, definetly yes! But again this is France. Don't know about Germany, but Canada is way more warm hearted than France.

I don't see link between your comment and the main topic. Plus this is typical french bashing: we french people financially contributed to your PHD, and you're basically saying that we are racist like some policemen who are just fed up with the problematic mass low-skilled immigration consequences.

Maybe you should go see an optometrician. France did indeed contribute to my Ph.D: mistreatement and exploitation. FYI, like most of the "immigrants", I have done research for free (yes, free with no scholarship), paid more taxes than you are probably doing now and contributed to your retirement (not mentioning the contributed research). So please, don't spill what you've just heard from your far right politicians who have nothing to do than bashing anything that relates to africans: Like bashing the French education minister because her parents are north-african immigrants.

> As for the U.S., the key difference with Germany is that our fertility rate is 1.89 (over 2.1 during the boom). Theirs is 1.36 (under 1.4 since 1990).

Please, when online (but also offline) do not use "ours" or "theirs". What is "ours" in this case? Germany or US? It is not clear from the context.

Also, if a person born in Germany goes to the US, what is "ours", what is "theirs" to s/he?

American is 1.89.

For all America, or just the USA?

You will never reverse this oddity of English vocabulary, no matter how much you bellyache about it on the Internet. Sorry that basic lingual fact contradicts your sense of fairness or whatever.

If it helps, you can think of "American" as shorthand for "American of the United States". If that doesn't help, I suggest you just get over it.

Nobody from Canada or Mexico would say they are "an American." Americans are residents/citizens of the USA.

Not totally true. I went to school with a lot of Mexicans and they would get verbally upset when I referred to the US as "America". As a Canadian, I could care less but they were very adamant about it.

I feel bad for people from Tijuana, as they are Californian and American but reside in neither California nor America.

The titles come from culturally distinct regions.

For the most part they say "North American," South American or "Latin American" even "Anglo Saxon America" for North America not including Mexico, go figure.

I think you might want to have a look at the opinion of UKIP - who mostly certainly do want to restrict immigration from EU countries to the UK:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/despite-what-uki...

NB Personally I regard the right to live and work anywhere in the EU as a wonderful thing.

In the UK there are definitely worries about low-skill migrants , mainly because of EU right to work rules which allow workers from any EU member country to live and work in the UK. Most of the concern is about migrants from poor countries which are recent EU entries like Romania taking low paying jobs and exerting downward pressure on the wage market.

Is there something wrong with self-governance, as long as your rules don't violate the laws of the land?

We get a lot of daft Muslim scare stories in some parts of the press here in the UK, "sharia law" being one of the favourites - this article in the Guardian tries to point out the reality:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/12/muslim-scare-st...

On closer inspection, it is clear sharia courts only have jurisdiction on civil matters and everyone must opt in to a sharia court. They only have an advisory capacity and address mainly property and financial matters, and rulings are then only enforceable by civil courts. In many cases, they are understaffed affairs, where one official settles petty disputes and draws up rudimentary documents.

So just like any other kind of alternative dispute resolution - mediation, adjudication, expert-determination, arbitration etc.

Edit - I'm actually over-stating this last bit, "sharia" law isn't nearly as strong as these formal ADR mechanisms.

There are important issues that crop up when the dispute resolution claims a higher authority. The societal pressure to accept such judgements are a lot higher and the arbitrariness and biases (against women, for example) of such judgements are also higher.

The judgments of arbitration proceedings, etc, are enforceable in regular courts. Its not purely independent of the state.

The problem with these stories tends to be that some native people in the UK don't really seem to understand the legal system and use these headlines to come to the conclusion that muslims aren't subject to UK criminal law, which is obviously false. Thus the tabloids like to print them because they generate outrage.

Why do you think it's acceptable to have a civil court based on religious principles? The idea is wrong and is the start of a slippery slope.

Opting out of these courts may not be an option for women pressured by their families and communities.

As far as I know, they aren't "courts" - they have no legal power. They are just people trying to resolve disputes outside of the courts - which is actually pretty common.

I'm not trying to say that there won't be problems with these kinds of mechanisms, but if UK citizens want to get together and try and work through a dispute based on some religious principles and all parties agree then I don't think we should be trying to stop it.

I think the fear is that having seen the countries these immigrants come from--in many cases, not liberal democracies--the native population is afraid that the immigrants want to make the country more like the old country, and local sharia courts are just the first step.

I wonder how many of us commenting on this article read past the headline to take a look at the chart (displayed on the left side of the article text, as I view the article in my browser) titled "More Immigrants Moving to Germany"? That chart shows very plainly, based on OECD statistics, that the United States has a higher absolute number of immigrants each year than Germany, as it has for a long time. The striking thing about the very recent statistics is the recent higher percentage of immigrants in relation to the total population of the country (313.9 million for the United States, 81.89 million for Germany), if I'm reading the chart scale correctly,[1] although other statistics sources continue to report that the United States has a higher rate of immigration.[2] If that trend is sustained, Germany will indeed be noteworthy as a country receiving a large percentage of immigrants year on year, but let's see what happens as the immigration trend interacts with economic growth trends in Germany and in Europe generally.[3] The economy has to stay somewhat healthy in German for immigrants to desire to move there.

[1] http://www.dw.de/immigration-to-germany-at-its-highest-rate-...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra...

[3] http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-14/europe-s-ec...

there are more immigrants moving to germany <compared to the past>

It should be noted that Germany is only a land of opportunity, if you intend to study there, have a university-level education or are wealthy enough that your education becomes irrelevant.

Furthermore unless you are doing software development, research or something similarly internationally focused you will have a bad time, if you don't speak German.

What is the chance of moving to Germany from the US without a college degree, but rather with five years industry experience and a handful of certifications, plus a good grasp of the German language? Would companies generally go for that, or would German authorities allow that?

From what I saw companies (or at least startups) don't care much about diplomas. Experience is king in here.

It could be a problem with authorities though while getting a work visa. Don't have much data on that as it didn't matter for me (coming from another Schengen country).

I'd say it's possible. I had colleagues with no grasp of the German language, minor English skills and no degree because the IT Industry in Germany is terribly hungry for employees. This was in Stuttgart (southwest), but I assume it's the same accross the country.

I worked for a software company who got itself a few foreign engineers for a few years, but let all of them go, because the language barrier just was too much of a problem, even for high skilled people.

They produced high quality software (fast, low on bugs, etc), but it just didn't do what has been intended.

Sorry for the dumb question, but how would I find these employers?

I did study four years of German in highschool (so I can hold a conversation with a toddler. Maybe) and have a degree in mathematics from UIUC.

If you know someone who's already working in Germany or you're able to hook up with someone, it shouldn't take long to connect you with companies that are looking for employees. You don't need to write applications in German, since most people in Germany with higher education are able and willing to communicate in English. Existing German knowledge and willingnes to pick up the language are of course an advantage. Another way to find work is to look for German companies operating in the US and trying to get in touch with someone who works there. For example, my previous employer operated at construction sites in India which helped some of my collegues to get in touch with them. If you already know in which sector you want to work, you can find companies and apply unsolicited or search their websites for job offerings. Job ads on German websites are typically placed under the keywords: Karriere, Stellenangebote, Unternehmen, Karriere, Jobs. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

look on monster.de for english speaking jobs, or thelocal.de - there are also facebook groups for startups in berlin who are looking to hire. Your best bet is to be here and look for something though - the odds of getting hired sitting in the US are slim to none unless you are really highly qualified / have tonnes of experience. If you're looking to get hired in tech get in touch.

Hey! I appreciate the intel, but...

Sorry, I'm less than entry level. My studies were general math, though I did get 'supporting coursework' in CS (~half in CS theory, half 'applied:' Java, C++). I can't find any entry-level/junior positions that don't require 3-5 year experience in X.

I'm willing to spend my free-time (in addition to working early/late hours) learning whatever technology you work with, but no one feels like giving me a chance.

I have a resume link in my profile if you don't mind giving advice.

depending on your field of expertise feel free to get in touch (I'm not a recruiter, but a freelancer with an extensive knowledge when it comes to good/bad employers here in germany. :)).

That depends on the company, in startups it's not going to be a problem but in larger more traditional companies HR is going to filter out your application before it hits the desk of whoever is actually hiring.

German authorities will definitely complicate it as well.

I also work in IT -- to get my residency, I had to bring both copies and the original of my college diploma. Not sure how much they bend the rules on that. It was listed by the Ausländerbehörde as a required document.

In general, Germany is really into "qualifications." You'll meet people who are addressed as Mr. Dr. Professor. Your competition by Germans will mostly have at least an MSc -- so that's what your certifications and experience will have to compete with.

(Edited to add: I came from the US. It's probably different for EU citizens).

As far as I can tell, you need to have a degree.

"Who can apply for the EU Blue Card: ...he or she has a German or an accredited foreign or a university degree that is comparable to a German one"

http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/

http://www.apply.eu/BlueCard/

Yeah, but that's just the blue card programme. There are of course more normal ways of immigrating.

Degree is required, but not for IT

Not really. I'm a senior software engineer, without a CS degree, and had my permit declined two times, for the same company. I was going to be the CTO, btw. Government does not allow people without a degree.

Yes, authorities will allow if your skill/experience is IT (which I assume it is) and have a job offer with salary more than 48600 euros per year because they have shortage of manpower in this industry.

I imagine they would. Ask your local embassy or something. My impression is that it's far easier to get in there than the US.

Berlin has been talked a lot about on HN, but what is the situation like now? I know for awhile it was relatively cheap which was one of the big perks, but housing costs have gone up due to people moving there. What level of experience would you need as an American programmer to move to Berlin and find work? Is it a realistic option?

An example of a past thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3221799

Rent prices have definitely exploded and there are no signs that the upwards trend will stop anytime soon. Nevertheless they are still low compared to cities like London or Paris.

Furthermore software developers in Berlin are in very high demand. If you speak English fluently and are a good software developer, getting a job in Berlin should be no problem.

Software developers are in demand, but the pay is not that great compared to other places (like Munich of Frankfurt). I think the influx of young developers from all over the world might have something to do with that. Also the lack of big companies, so it's mostly startups with limited money supply who employ developers.

The influx of developers has almost nothing to do with that. Wages in Berlin are in general somewhat lower than in Munich because Berlin is cheaper to live in.

Hm, does that really make sense? The level of rents should have no bearing on how much a developer is worth to a company? So it would mean the Berlin developers are just bad at negotiation?

What are examples?

For rents? There is a map available here: http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/mietkarte-berlin/#2-1650

It's in German but it should be still fairly easy to understand. Basically average rent for a 72m^2 two bedroom apartment with a new constract is somewhere between 815€ and 1100€ within the SBahn ring.

If you are willing to share an apartment (which students generally do in Germany), you can usually get by with 300-400€ per month for rent.

If you mean examples about rent prices, a 1-room apartment in Charlottenburg (nice location) costs around €600. Similar apartment in Wedding (a bit further north) is around €500.

For reference, a regular programming job should be around €1500 per month after taxes, while a month worth of supermarket food costs around €250 (although the right habits can shave almost a hundred from that). Add another €100 for a month of unlimited public transport, and you are set.

1500€/month after taxes sounds very low. That is like 27k yearly before taxes (Steuerklasse 1 / no church taxes). Eastern europeans get paid that, because you can lowball them so easily. But as far as I know 40k is a lower bound for cs graduates.

For reference I got 56.5k/year base salary at my first job after graduation (small company) and that were 2770€/month after taxes. I even have two friends that earn more than I do. Quit that one after half a year though (russian offshore programmers communication hell).

Your rent/food prices are correct though. Small hack: your employer can pay you 44€/month tax-free for the public transport ticket (geldwerter Vorteil Freibetrag).

If you get 1500€ after taxes, you are being hugely underpaid. 2000€ should be the very least you should expect / demand.

I'm going to third that. 1500 is definitely very low for a monthly salary as a software developer. A one bedroom in a nice part of Berlin is already more than half of that.

If you have at least 3-4 years of experience, especially in web or mobile development you're good. I think you'd get `extra points` for being native English speaker.

Food is still pretty cheap. You can avoid buying public transit ticket if you don't mind biking to work as well.

Money is also usually not the issue while renting the flat. Your credibility is. It's best to start by renting a room in a shared flat, gather the paperwork and then try to find something better. Looking for a flat outside Ringbahn (or just outside) sharply brings prices down.

Still, you'd better start learning German right now, it really pays off.

Here's a great article on what's required to get a freelance visa in Germany (i.e. you don't actually even need a German company to employ you before you move): https://medium.com/@imcatnoone/how-to-get-your-german-freela...

My impression from visiting and friends that live there is that Berlin is undergoing a true technology renaissance at the moment. Personally, if I weren't already living in a perfect location, I'd be looking to move to Berlin.

Excerpt:

“Berlin is different than other parts of Germany, and that’s why I think I can make it here,” he said. “It is more relaxed, more accepting than other German cities, and there is no pressure to behave a certain way.”

As I understand it, that would be something of a holdover from the cold war days when the culture there was unique due to it's odd political situation.

Largely due to the high numbers of young counterculturalists who moved to West Berlin in the 70s and 80s. (Unlike the rest of West Germany West Berlin didn't have conscription.)

That sounds unlikely, because I think counterculturalists have very strict ideas of how you should be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany#Conscie...

I don't have much information about Germany apart from a couple one-week holidays, so I can't really comment on those.

On the other hand, I've moved to Britain 2 years ago (with a secured job that I'm just leaving for a new one this week) and in my experience this isn't far away from "The Land of Opportunity". The Greater London area and, to some extent, the M4 corridor is just the paradise for skilled IT workers. Heck, even some towns have almost nil unemployment in general (Reading, I'm looking at you).

Seriously, IT companies struggle to find skilled and experienced people and often hire from the rest of the EU just because it is a bigger pool and many >35 y.o. people already speak decent English so, why not?

Isn't the London real estate market as pricy as S.F., though?

Yes, it is. Hence my comments about the M4 corridor as well... Worth checking it out (surely not as cheap as Berlin though).

Both are like black holes of real estate crazy orbiting each other...

An architect (known HERE IN GERMANY to be an over-run study-topic with too little jobs or low pay (until you made it)), a social worker, which is now a dish washer. Highly qualified foreign workers (which we highly need)...

even if the article portrayed a university guy... where are we (Germany, Europe, rest of the world) on a global ranking on universities?! (We are well behind Berkley, Stanford and Harvard!)

There were only 170 "expert workers" coming in the first year [1]. Also on that link a more in-side discussion (german residents) with much more critical tone (Google translate may help).

And I am not against that all the Russians, Rumanians and now also the people from the recent crisis come here because of hard economic problems in their country. But... you know... let's keep the church in the village.

People are having less and less offspring because live gets more difficult here (work opportunities only in big cities, living costs (esp. housing FOR A FAMILY), taxes, requirement to travel, etc.). And then arguing "we need people/imigrants"... it's just twisting everything... like a german politician said "I make me my world as I'd like it to be"). There is even the debate here, that "Germany gets rid of itself".

And then YC summer "batch" consisting of 68 groups, which received funding (some, then "B", "C", what 1 Mio, then 21 Mio)... wow... there is not much here (sorry, no it's not!)

Ignorance is bliss ("ja ja ja, the Americans are just more risk-friendly", end of personal horizont)

It's good to be called a "SF based company"

"Made in Germany", yeah... cars... and cars and cars (I wouldn't wonder if Google or Apple or a StartUp (Tesla?) would crush these next)

Europe, welcome to the old world!

But what will it look like in 10 or 20 years?

[1] http://m.welt.de/print/welt_kompakt/print_wirtschaft/article...

I think the universities are really good. I agree on the cars issue. Makes me really nervous that everything hinges on the car industry and they don't seem to get the future at all.

What's the endgame for propping up population numbers with immigration? Surely the whole system falls apart once the net fertility rate falls below 2. What then?

There's good reasons to be immigration-friendly, but dealing with the endgame of the inevitably shrinking population like the Japanese are doing seems like a better long-term strategy than the temporary band-aid solution of solving the problem in the short-term with increased immigration.

So immigrant-friendly that sometimes it even comes to you!

Immigrant friendly, sure. Refugee friendly? Not so much. Berlin is having some massive issues right now with how to handle them (1).

Then again, I'm in Australia, so I can't really talk.

(1) https://news.vice.com/video/berlins-refugee-crisis

"Immigrants" from Italy and Spain? Is the author joking or just ignorant? People within the EU can live and work wherever they want. No "immigration procedure" necessary. Just pack your things and go.

> immigrant, noun.

> 1. A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.

I think he knows exactly what "immigrants" means.

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