Comment by bane | Hacker News Reader

Comment by bane | Hacker News Reader

I think this is them just getting ahead of some possible long-term drive-train issues.

http://www.mercurynews.com/60-second-business-break/ci_26323...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/alternative/1404...

http://insideevs.com/real-imagined-tesla-model-s-drivetrain-...

Recently Edmunds sold their long-term Tesla Model S; but before they did so the car had four (yes, four) drivetrains replaced by Tesla Motors. Motor Trend’s long term car is working on its 2nd.

This does not make us ask the question “is drivetrain failure a common occurence in the Model S?”

Because it is.

If you check out the latest numbers on a Tesla Motors Club poll, you will find that 75 (supposed) Model S owners have had a least 1 drive unit replaced - 12 of which have had it replaced more than once.

(Fair disclaimer: There is always a couple jokers messing with the results of an uncontrolled poll like this. As a point of reference, TMC likely has somewhere around 5% of Model S owners as members)

To their credit, Tesla service has been doing a yeoman’s job taking care of its clients. Despite the many failure occurrences we have yet to hear of Tesla giving a Model S owner a difficult time in solving the problem (ie-replacing the drive unit entirely).

The problem for customers will arise however when Tesla’s 4 year/50,000 mile warranty on the unit expires; that is when repairs reportedly greater than $10,000 a pop really start to hurt.

Tesla has got to both get ahead of this issue for the upcoming models and instill consumer confidence in the vehicles while they're fixing it.

I kind of wonder if swapping out the drivetrain is actually a really common and perhaps early part of Tesla's troubleshooting procedure. Since it's just a motor, batteries, and relatively simple transmission it probably isn't nearly as hard to remove as a combustion engine (especially if they designed it for easy removal). It's probably a lot easier to pull the drivetrain out, swap in a known good one, and have the customer on their way than spend hours and days trying to debug the unit in the car (and potentially having the customer back again if the issue isn't resolved).

With fewer connection points it would seem a given that the drivetrain is easier to swap out than an internal combustion engine. Musk has also mentioned on an investor call that drivetrain replacements were sort of a catch-all for some other unrelated issues (before they had fully discovered the issue).

Even if we err on the cautious side and say a better comparison is replacing just the transmission of an ICE vehicle, the Tesla drivetrain is only electrical connections (albeit some large ones), drive shaft, and mounting hardware.

I wrote out the list of ICE transmission removal steps but deleted it -- I think the point is clear: this is no big deal.

Tesla can absolutely reuse the drivetrains it removes, unless the defect is catastrophic. I wonder what exactly the cause is? (I'm sure Tesla is hard at work determining just that.)

Just speculating: if Tesla has gone ahead and extended the warranty, they might be doing it because they are certain that the issues are not catastrophic. Cost/benefit analysis was probably completed to Musk's satisfaction before this announcement.

That's why I want an electric car... Probably far fewer parts. I would be curious to compare a combustion engine car's parts list VS electric car.

There are reports that this has already been solved.

http://transportevolved.com/2014/08/11/tesla-model-s-drivetr...

Moreover:

Speaking a few weeks ago at the Q2 earnings call, Tesla Motors [NASDAQ:TSLA] CEO Elon Musk said that Tesla’s approach — replacing the drivetrain of affected cars under warranty at an estimated cost of $15,000 per case — was more about customer satisfaction than anything else. “Our optimization was customer happiness. And so we knew exactly what to do. We just wanted to give people their car back right away,” he said.

"Tesla, like its Silicon Valley cohort Apple, often goes above and beyond the call of duty when carrying out repairs, swapping out entire components to keep customers happy."

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.

My experience with Apple failures/replacements has been worse than any other customer service / quality assurance experience I've had. Products owned: Nano first gen (replaced with nano eighth gen), Video first gen, MBP 2007. Also a 5s but that can be an exception because my Mom brought it in the pool while I was lending it to her and we were trying to figure out random shutdowns on her 5, which were due to the battery.

Have you met Comcast?

I have been using cable internet here in the suburbs of SF since 1997 or so, which is currently owned by Comcast (it was originally @Home, then ATT Broadband Internet, then Comcast or something). The product they own is top notch. I got near 1 MB/s download speeds on Napster when it came out.

Of course Comcast is just a puppet of media companies that are trying to monopolize consumer communication and monitor/identify users. I do indeed believe I have experienced poor quality service due to the controls they have been implementing, but overall the product has been quite a satisfying experience most of the time.

The problem with Apple's service is that it really doesn't even exist. There is no way to talk to anybody at Apple about the technical issues with their products. They just tell you to take it to completely clueless people at their retail stores or mail it in for replacement. This is all fine and dandy, as long as you bought the product a year ago or pay for Apple Care.

It's difficult to compare to Comcast.

Anecdote is not data, but if you insist... http://www.reddit.com/r/apple/search?q=service&restrict_sr=o...

There's good reasons why Apple tops customer satisfaction surveys pretty consistently - obviously there'll be failures sometimes, but overall they do aim for customer satisfaction more than most companies.

I guess that works for the majority of people, but in order to satisfy me they need to admit to and take responsibility for their widespread product failures. With each of the products I listed in my post above I have long stories about their widespread failures and plenty of evidence from websites, blog posts, forum posts, and even HN discussions, that it wasn't just me having these issues (with exception of the 5s, unless iPhones are expected to be waterproof; I was having issues with the earbuds though).

I'm over them though. Honestly, I loved each one of those products deeply (the video was actually under warranty, but it was stolen from my car before I sent it in). They are obviously very pleasant to use, and their high price tag provides quality material and sleek designs. I just have no more patience for the failures that render them unusable. With a higher price tag it should be even more crucial that the product does not fail, as we see with cars.

For my future computing device purchases I will opt for the lower cost products that have less failures. I hope that there will be more high material cost devices that can compete with Apple and maintain quality assurance. It is also a plus to get out of the walled garden.

I don't get your point.

They just announced a warranty of 8 years and no range restriction retroactively. You also mention that their service is great and the pool is void.

Even if the drive unit has to be replaced before 8 ( or 4 ) years then that is no problem to the customer. It can't be a problem to Tesla or they wouldn't announce this warranty.

The point is if you have replaced the drive unit four times in the first 30k miles (as with the Edmunds car), just how many times are you going to have to replace it once the warranty expires?

Your parent sees extending the warranty as a form of damage-control against this (quite reasonable) fear.

It seems they have figured out the solution to their drive train problem.

http://transportevolved.com/2014/08/11/tesla-model-s-drivetr...

Sounds like they beta tested on customers to accelerate the development/release cycle. Exactly like many people do with software development.

At least they are standing behind it, many corporations would just say "too bad, so sad".

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