Comment by acquiHire2014 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by acquiHire2014 | Hacker News Reader

They've sacrificed their core of users who supplied all of the checkins and tips in order to try to kill Yelp. Problem was, only those loyal users were ever convinced that they were better than yelp.

Now that they've chosen the foursquare name, which is synonymous with checkins, for their Yelp clone, it seems like they haven't thought out...

1. If the checkin users leave because Swarm is stupid and eliminates everything fun (mayorships, badges, reading all the tips without going to another app, seeing who else is checked in besides your friends), who is going to keep supplying them with behavioral data? Not casual users, who won't open the app and show their location at all until they're looking for a recommendations. In terms of data, casual users are takers, while the check-in users are givers.

2. Foursquare super users (their community of people who applied for edit privileges on the venue data) are probably all avid check-in users. Without them, junk venues and spam may overwhelm.

3. How do they really expect to attract enough users who want to use the new foursquare now that the app is a completely different thing? What's their differentiator from Yelp? To me it just seems like it's Yelp but with shorter reviews. Everyone who didn't use foursquare before because they hated check-ins isn't going to even know they killed check-ins and will still stay away.

I think this whole plan might have had a chance if they'd left foursquare alone as their data generator, and launched a new app with a new name for their Yelp clone. At least then they'd have a new chance to introduce themselves and try to attract the mass audience they're going for.

Agreed. I've been a super user for years, and I was happy to give foursquare all of my data because they did two great things with it:

1) they gave it back to me so I had an accessible record of my check-ins which is very helpful if you travel frequently, and very lovely if, like me, your personality combines deep nostalgia with shocking forgetfulness. It also made Timehop worth opening.

2) they used it in seemingly intelligent ways to give me surprisingly good recommendations when I needed them, and showed me where friends had checked in, even if they hadn't left tips. A check-in from a friend can be a tiny endorsement of its own in absence of anything else.

Both of those benefits are what keep me checking in. Which is what keeps me using the app. I fully recognize that there isn't enough of me to support foursquare. I get that. But I'm still sad to see it go.

Honestly, I used the app the same way you did... I'm a bit dismayed with the new direction. It seems like they could have still left the checkin feature but made it less prominent (I still would have been happy as a super user)

Yelp but with shorter reviews

That's actually something I really want. I'm sick of reading "My fiancee and I were walking down Main St, browsing restaurants, when we happened to notice <restaurant name>. She likes fish, so we were looking for fish dishes..."

As for the rest of it - you're likely right. But the old Foursquare wasn't generating money. So either you abandon your hardcore users by shutting down, or you attempt to move them to a new service that has a better business model.

My biggest complaint about Yelp is the same as yours, nearly everyone is a "foodie" and trying to write reviews like they're part of the New York Times.

The beauty of Yelp is that you don't have to read them! The power is in the fact that reviews are aggregated ("..and the fish is amazing!") and that you can search within them. Sometimes I wanna search "oysters" to see if their oysters are any good. Let's say out of 100 reviews one mentions oysters - at least now I have an idea what to expect about oysters, whereas in Foursquare this may not have even been documented due to the char limit.

Except that that aggregated data frequently aggregate useless info into a very reductive score. If I go to a $ restaurant, I don't value a poor review which bases itself on poor service. If I'm paying $10 a plate, I can handle almost any level of service if the food is good.

It's a sliding scale though, at $$$$ I would rate the service related review more highly.

I would LOVE if yelp let people rate reviews, as well as restaurants. Useful reviews deserver more weight than ones that say, "I hated it, and didn't leave a tip because the waiter was ..."

They do let you rate reviews which will filter upwards, but the "power users" always win out. The problem is the power users are the ones who write the long winded reviews.

Fully agree, that's why I don't use yelp and preferred just the bite-sized reviews. The twitter style reviews managed to all impart useful info in a time frame I can consume between door of restaurant (begin check-in) and table (already have 3 inspirations on what to order).

Sadly most of my friends who don't use foursquare haven't seen it my way.

But my point is, they're still building and supporting 1 check-in app... If they'd just called that one foursquare and not remove any features, and make a new app for the rest of the world, they could still pursue that larger group of non-obsessed users that they need without alienating the people who would be happy to keep supplying them with behavioral data and content forever.

I work for Foursquare; here's my answer to #3:

It's not just that tips are shorter than reviews, though that's part of it. The issue with Yelp is that every single user gets the same recommendations if they search at the same place and time. And in a world where everything is becoming more personalized, it's crazy that the predominant app in the local search category does nothing to tailor its results to you. When you sign up for the new Foursquare, it asks you for your tastes so that every time you search, every time you open the app, it will be tailored for the things you like. It's like Amazon recommended products vs the experience you get on non-smart ecommerce platforms. It's smarter at a fundamental level; the things we are doing with our data are really smart and unprecedented in this space. That's why I'm confident we have a differentiated product in this new app, and I hope you try it out and see what I mean.

Furthermore, we still have tons of check-in data - 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in. So I don't think there's much to worry about with regards to our data getting stale and losing quality.

> 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in.

That's an incredibly high number, so I'm guessing it doesn't mean "all users ever", but rather "all users who check in at least once a day"?

Consider that the 10% must also include Windows Phone users (as there is no Swarm app in WP).

'checkin users' probably means something like "active daily users on platforms where we have released swarm" and 'moved over to Swarm' means something like "has at least 1 checkin using Swarm". This is what I like to call "counting for marketing professionals".

> 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm Really? I find that extremely hard to believe that 90% of users would download a second app. That would be a super huge success if true. Or how do you define 'checkin user'? Someone who checks in every day? At least once a week? etc

That's a good number, how do you define a "checkin user"?

but I HATE that once in swarm, you bounce me back to Foursquare to see what's good here, after not allowing me to check in in Foursquare. It's so maddening.

The thing is, in practice bouncing directly to that view in another app is about the same as bouncing to a separate view in the same app. Try it with the new Foursquare + Swarm. I was just as skeptical at first, but it really does work pretty well. Honestly here's the old flow:

1. Hit check in 2. Pick venue 3. Type text, pick people you're with, etc 4. Hit confirm 5. Tap through insights 6. Tap to venue page

Now here's the new flow:

1. Hit check in from Foursquare's Here tab 2. Venue's selected, just tap your text, pick friends/sticker 3. Hit Check in 4. Swipe through insights, click "View in Foursquare"

It's honestly fewer steps when you think about it, thanks to the fact that the checkin flow is much faster + we know where you are with better confidence.

ok... but why do always get bounced to Swarm to checkin if i start in FS?

Are you sure about the 90%? I've been a hardcore user and I don't use it since Swarm. And most of my friends don't use it anymore. People will slowly get out of it, tips will be ages old and somethings else will take over the place. I'm just sad that I put so much energy to get new places onto the map and write tips and you just make them fade away...

The 90% is likely users downloading it since they were basically forced to with the split, started it up once and quit using it.

The 2 star reviews on the Appstore show retention is likely horrible with the new app.

> 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in

You/Foursquare really should clarify exactly what you mean by this - we keep hearing how "successful" Swarm is but it seems most [former] users (including me) and their friends (including mine) stopped using it when (or shortly after) the switch happened.

Right now Foursquare sounds like Google in the early days of Google+ where they were touting how much people were posting but everybody was saying they never saw any activity in their stream.

There is some sort of automated checking in going on; I haven't checked in even once in Swarm, and I've been asked by my friends if I'm a fan of this change because apparently, I've been checking in all over the city.

Your location/neighborhood is being updated automatically in the background, but you are not automatically checked into venues.

Considering how popular it is to inflate ego metrics, safe to assume 90% means 90% of people who use the app everyday, or something incredibly obtuse.

Not even Candy Crush can say 90% of users download a new game, etc. Let alone Foursquare. yawns

> Furthermore, we still have tons of check-in data - 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in.

Isn't that because Foursquare auto-updated to Swarm? Or something? I don't even remember how I got that app on my phone, and I opened it maybe twice. Check-ins (or something) appear to be fully automatic, there's no need to even open the app, and the only reason I haven't deleted it yet is because I'm too lazy. I'm dead serious here. I loved Foursquare and used it over Yelp (making my friend Yelp Community Manager unhappy), but now I find it completely worthless.

EDIT:

[0] made me finally remove Swarm. I don't need an app I don't use eat my power while I still haven't bought that powerbank to be able to play Ingress longer.

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8143970

> Furthermore, we still have tons of check-in data - 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm

The 90% of users who were basically forced to switch to it have given your app an overwhelmingly negative 2 star rating.

They may have downloaded it since they don't have much of a choice but its clear the vast majority of your users hate it.

I completely agree with all points. I used to check-in every time I went somewhere, but now without the mayorship, badges, etc., I don't do anything anymore. I actually haven't opened Foursquare in about a week now.

Not sure why they were so excited about losing functionality and fragmenting their user base.

Also agree, for me the mayorships are what kept me checking in to my regular places, I kinda feel like the Swarm split killed Foursquare. Their loss I guess.

why do you care about being the mayor? was there some benefit beyond the foursquare status I am not aware of ?

It was a fun game. If I really like a certain cafe and go there almost every day it was fun to have some way to show and compete for that.

The benefit was a good UX.

Occasionally venues would have special perks for the mayor.

Ridiculously type-A people can't see a game without wanting to win it.

That's at least what got me on foursquare. Really sad to see points go. Every time I traveled I'd try to top my high score and I really think it helped.

The latest updates to Swarm reintroduced a few of the original gamification concepts, most notably an unlockable "mayor" sticker. Give it a try.

Exactly! The transition was also handled poorly. How annoying was it to have an unfamiliar Swarm pop-up anytime you wanted to check-in on Foursquare? How annoying is it that all your badges are gone? These new stickers seem cool, how do I earn them?

I mean, I love the new spontaneous event planning feature, sure. But really, all Swarm did was add a tab and some stickers. I honestly feel as if a simple redesign including those two features would have sufficed. Instead, they made a huge gamble based on data and didn't really think about how the current users would adapt.

I've stopped using 4sq when they forced to check in through Swarm. Swarm was constantly monitoring me and eating the battery. At least in Foursquare app you could turn of the 'Radar'.

Good bye 4sq.

You can turn off the tracking in Swarm as well.

FYI you can go into iOS preferences -> General -> Background App Refresh and turn off apps that you don't want to run in the background. I've done that with Swarm with no problems, and you can do it with other apps too (Facebook?)

Eating the battery you say? Ok, this is enough. I just uninstalled both apps. I don't need stuff I don't use competing with Ingress over power.

sigh

I recall seeing a data presentation on 4square a few months ago, and the numbers suggested that check-ins were tapering. They definitely realized that all their corporate value was in the data.

Perhaps they are trying to avoid the split issues from Netflix? I think they needed to give the Foursquare name to the Yelp-killer so that people would know about it. The space is too crowded to start from scratch. And Yelp is ready to be killed.

"And Yelp is ready to be killed."

Why? Is that your personal sentiment on their company, or are you suggesting their business isn't successful? Who's their biggest competitor? They killed Citysearch, and Sheckys, and all the other websites that used to dominate that space, but I can't think of another company that comes close to their brand awareness apart from Google, who probably won't dominate since it's not their primary function.

Yelp's ratings, reviews, recommendations, and tips aren't very good for food, bars, and things to do. I've always found Foursquare's to be much higher quality.

I think the parent was suggesting that Yelp is good enough. When you have a brand as recognizable as Yelp and viewed as "good enough" then it becomes nearly impossible for a competitor to beat them by simply being better.

You have to be different and I'm not sure what needs to be different about Yelp.

Two issues with Yelp:

1 - The recommendations are not personalized. We are getting more and more accustomed to personalization. I love FreshDirect, but I don't trust their anonymous ratings either. Same with SeamlessWeb.

2 - The Yelp reviews are frequently gimmicked by advertisers.

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