I'm a woman CEO and it doesn't change anything
blogs.wsj.com
blogs.wsj.com
also, depending on the size of the company, i think women CEOs need to take on some atypically aggressive and assertive business characteristics that are unbecoming of either sex but are typically more acceptable in society for men to step into.
could a woman be the next Larry Ellison? certainly yes, but not without first taking on his asshole qualities. the aggressive characteristics that make him a great multi-$bn CEO also make him a pretty hated guy in many circles. there's a difference between business-respect and personal-respect, some people don't give a shit about the latter and will step on their partners' throats to get ahead.
I agree. I'm going to come out and say it, it's difficult for a woman to step into any kind of leadership position and do the tough things without being perceived as a "bitch".
One thing I've observed in women who might be perceived as successful in those roles is that they're able to find the right way of being in charge and overcoming those perceptions. I think it's a subtle attitude or behavior change, and it seems to be a fine line.
But I'll also say that for men, they risk being perceived as "an asshole" in much the same way. And demonstrating assertiveness and leadership, being tough when it's needed it also a similar skill. I just think that men have more societal support and a few thousand years more practice and training to figure it out.
Women have far fewer role models to pattern after.
This does not seem to be the case in my small sample of anecdotal experience. Could you say a bit more on why you think it is the case in general?
people see an aggressive male and say "oh, that's just his nature" and the opposite for agressive women, "oh, what's wrong with her?". the converse is equally true: men who are overly submissive are considered to have "issues". testosterone makes males more aggressive as a gender, they are designed to fight and compete. i think blaming everything on cultural norms and sexism doesnt give enough credence to this.
i've always wondered why no one from "everyone is 100% equal" camp takes issue with male/female segregation in sports/olympics.
Amazing, given all we've achieved to move beyond the biology and nature we had for tens of thousands of years, that we're still incapable of seeing an aggressive woman as 'normal'.
That's a straw man opener, for sure. No-one is arguing that men and women are the same. What I am saying is that women and men are equally capable at being great business leaders. They are equally capable of assholes while doing so. But men are far more likely to be given a free pass on behaviour like that than women are.
There's nothing evolutionary about that. Someone's perception of you is not coded into your genetic pattern. It's cultural. A hundred years ago you could have easily claimed that women shouldn't have the vote because of tens of thousands of years of biological differences. What makes that argument any different to this one?
I agree. Though perception is not the same thing as caring about your perception. Being perceived as assholes (and enablers of child labor, pollution, etc) doesnt stop men from striving to be CEOs of huge international conglomerates. I do believe that there is a societal issue with appointing women as CEOs of existing enterprises (rather that women being CEOs/founders). This fear may be founded in "can this woman rise to the sufficient level of asshole necessary to always make shareholder-value-enhancing decisions?". maybe it is the higher morality of women (a good quality by anyone's standards) that acts as a glass ceiling in business.
> A hundred years ago you could have easily claimed that women shouldn't have the vote because of tens of thousands of years of biological differences. What makes that argument any different to this one?
no one is preventing women from giving up raising a family to dedicate themselves to business. i doubt that the disparity between male and female CEOs can solely be accounted for by oppression or the perception that "trying isnt worth it because i'm a woman"
I think you're missing the point. If we acknowledge that there are differences then we can come to terms with the fact statistically men will always be more likely to be CEOs - that doesn't mean we should stop fighting sexism or whatever other issues we have culturally producing prejudice - but it does mean that we may not need to strive for some kind of ... statistical parity.
In another comment you say:
> What I am saying is that women and men are equally capable at being great business leaders
You have no way of knowing that. That's a pure guess on your part. We know that women and men have different brains on the biological and chemical level so, all things being equal, surely it would lead to a least SOME difference statistically on which gender ends up being CEO. The question after that is of degree and does our current gender ratio predominantly represent a biological or cultural phenomena.
Since we historically have a lot of different cultures, and all seem to produce significantly more male leaders than females on, I'd say the biological argument has a lot of weight. I could be wrong!
I suppose you also believe that viability for US presidency is largely a genetic biological trait, since so many Bushes and other White Anglo-Saxons Protestants have gravitated toward it.
I worked for one who most certainly did.
"That's my bitch."
Don't judge a CEO on their personal characteristics, judge them for what they do and stand for. The new CEO of Coca Cola said he needed to figure out how to get more people to drink Coke. Fuck him. There are a lot of CEOs who are not just really bad for their companies but really bad for the world. For the most part, I think Steve Jobs was ok and the world is better because of him. It is ok to stomp on toes but not simply for the sake of stomping on them.
There will be some really good female CEOs. I predict all of them will have actually built their own company.
If you're worried about being a <whatever> you are unlikely to succeed when things go bad and action needs to be taken.
Incidentally, this is one of the primary characteristics of the now-abandoned concept of "sociopathy."
I disagree that leadership is about being a bitch or an asshole.
Yes, it's widely said that Steve Jobs was an asshole. But people "got" where he was coming from. He was a perfectionist. I'm pretty sure he didn't alienate all his friends.
In leadership you have to be able to take tough decisions; but it's not about being tough with other people all the time. You might have to be tough with someone occasionally, it's a tool you might need to use.
Take Martha Stewart for example. Tough bitch ? Successful CEO ?
Women have to give up more than men. Guys can spend their 20s, 30s, and even 40s working nights and weekends to build the foundations of a successful company, with the goal of starting a family after they've 'made it'.
The window of opportunity for women is a lot narrower. If you're a woman entrepreneur in your 30's and want to eventually start a family, you'll have some much tougher choices to make than a guy in a similar situation.
I know people have done it before but I couldn't imagine going all out on the early days of building a startup while having to care for a baby, as a father or mother.
Really?
A friend of mine is 24 and her parents got here when they were in their sixties.
At least the window to give a birth to a child for a average woman is a lot smaller than a average man.
Most of HN users have different opinions than me or simply don't understand what I'm trying to say. Also I'm not a good writer lol
I guess that's a reason to spermbank. Though really, people should just have kids young in the first place. :/
I mean, I might still make a terrible father, but I'm trying to imagine 23 year old me raising a child and it's terrifying.
My experience with my own children is the effect you can have on them is very limited - this is both liberating and depressing.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/older-fathers-may-pass-health-...
http://www.mommyish.com/2012/06/12/older-fathers-benefits-65...
I don't think the couple weeks most women might consider the minimum during maternity leave is significant.
It seems pretty even IMO. Waiting until your 40's, 50's or 60's for a man doesn't come without it's own trade-offs.
Most men who "someday want a family", entrepreneurs or not, are probably going to want to start a family before 40 I'd guess. I don't think gender probably plays a very big role in the "when" decision.
Leaving out details, but I'll say my wife's time/compensation package was _far_ better than mine. If anything her career has accelerated sharply since our first born. Which is positive of course. But it certainly seems counter to the "prevailing wisdom" on HN.
Earlier you said:
>>I cook the vast majority of breakfasts/dinners/meal-planning. Do almost all the dishes. Do 75% of the day-care pick-ups/drop-offs. Most of the late-at-the-office-hours are hers.
I think your situation is not the norm. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's not the norm. btw, I'm married with a 3yr.old daughter and a son on the way. In case this context is needed.
I have two young children. I cook the vast majority of breakfasts/dinners/meal-planning. Do almost all the dishes. Do 75% of the day-care pick-ups/drop-offs. Most of the late-at-the-office-hours are hers.
If you're going to get into a discussion about gender bias it'd probably help to leave your own at the door.
I'm guessing here because you haven't left me much to go on, other than you seem to think your Dad didn't do his fair share I guess?
Or my assertion that having kids while you're still young, having time to see them grow up and be an active part of their lives, seeing them go on to make their own families, that all that stuff is something men in general think about as well?
Successful men are probably also sexually more attractive to women than vice versa, an aspiring househusband with a low paid job would probably find it harder to get a date with a female CEO than the other way around.
That sounds as a sexist stereotype. Do you have statistics that this actually represent the norm for CEO's?
Simply claiming that because men can wait after they've 'made it', doesn't mean that every man on every continent will do it. That what I asked for, statistics that prove that men actually do it: wait until they've 'made it' to form families.
Or is "Biology" proof enough, and anyone who ask for evidence that stereotypes actually is the norm is simply being disruptive to the discussion?
The way my company's CEO, who is also female, put it: "when you're a woman, people in business don't take you seriously until you are successful."
I'm a guy, but I see this phenomenon everyday when observing the way my female coworkers are treated by (male) managers. The good-looking ones have it worst, in my opinion: while their looks may give them an advantage in certain situations, they often have to work extra hard to get noticed, and when they do become successful, their success is attributed to their looks instead of their intelligence and hard work.
Also, Gabe is a founder. Most CEO types are MBA raiders who float from job to job pillaging companies.
I cried male tears of joy, and when I showed this to my friend, she smiled as well. I'd upvote more than once if I could.
Why? I don't want to emphasize anything. Can these people leave us alone and stop telling everyone what they should be doing. Who do they think they are, I am so sick of this.
This is so that you are talking about the potential for success regardless of being a woman, rather than the womanliness despite being successful, the latter construing it as though being a woman is incompatible with success.
Of course there are some drawbacks of being a female CEO. When you’re a woman in charge, you do have to work a bit more to get credibility and have people listen to you; it might be harder to recruit developers and make them trust you; and you will end up going to a few sales meetings where the other person is more interested in you than in your product.
There are also some pretty good advantages. It’s sometimes easier to get press coverage, and sales can happen faster. People will usually be keener on lending a hand. And I’m not even talking about all the help I got from fellow female entrepreneurs, especially when I was trying to get things off the ground.
I agree with her general sentiment that being a CEO is hard, regardless of gender. I also agree with her agenda that women need more role models of what it looks like to be a successful woman. But I don't think this kind of dismissal of the issues women have is very helpful. Being a woman does change some things. Understanding that "it has its good points and bad points" is a much, much better message than saying "it isn't any different at all" which is what the title says.
Her point here was that its not necessarily harder being a girl ceo/ some things are different but it's a draw.
Her point was that these are minor details and that it doesn't change what makes being a ceo so difficult.
She wants to make it clear that being a woman ceo isn't some kind of amazing feat (though being a ceo in general is) and that she wants more woman to try it.
> But I don't think this kind of dismissal of the issues women have is very helpful
I think she knows better than you, unless you are a female CEO.
She made the point that sometimes when a woman is doing sales the customer can be more interested in her than the product. But historically, a lot of women in sales have tried to use sexuality to get the sale.
The fact that it wasn't perceived by her as a big deal does not prove she knows better than I do. Statistical outliers are not inherently more wise than others about the problems that your "average" person has.
You've already said you don't agree with her on this point and yet again you don't say why.
> Statistical outliers are not inherently more wise than others about the problems that your "average" person has.
I'm sure that formerly, she was not a CEO, she was an "average" person. So she knows more about getting to CEO as a woman than you do. I'm not arguing that she has had the same experiences as you but I think it's a given that she is not implying that it is the same for all women.
If you are actually interested in a few of my thoughts on the subject, there are relevant posts on my personal blog that can be read. You could look for the tag "The Gray Zone" to get you started.
I think the onus was on you, the person posting a comment that you disagree with the author of the article, to make your argument/point.
You can't join a discussion with "I disagree" and not say why.
I wish we would speak more about the role of chance in success rather than how many X chromosomes a person has.
We have way too many articles by women describe how the ceiling works or is broken and way too few from men that look at the problem of the glass floor along the lines of "i'm a man working in a mostly male power structure and here's how this structure creates adverse results." We are so used to accepting the latter we can hardly imagine its effect. Until the entire power structure of a institution mirrors that of the social demographic makeup there is really no reason to take these articles seriously.
This statement may come off polarizing, but the same applies to minorities.
As a black man, and a Jamaican, other black people and other Jamaicans don't need "black CEOs" to look up to. They just need other CEOs who happen to be black, and other successful entrepreneurs that also happen to be Jamaican.
It is for this reason that I don't support things like quotas. Make sure that X% of your executive ranks are female, or black or asian or any other "under-represented" minority. Quotas are bad policy.
The more people of minority origins that become successful is the more they will inspire others to do the same.
There is a reason so many young black men want to become basketball stars, and why so many Jamaicans are "running" (no pun intended) into athletics. It is because they have realized that they can excel in those fields because of the examples before them. Not that they are anyhow more advantaged in those fields. It is just that the glass ceiling is no longer there.
So Kudos to Ms. Collin for writing this article. Well said!
Of course, words like woman, man, female, and male also have connotations above and beyond their technical parts of speech, such as the connotations Mathilde talks about.
I'm not advocating "mostly-arbitrary rules for people to follow." Just pointing out the technical meanings of both terms. I also pointed out that these meanings are fluid and are changing. Obviously usage is subject to change, and if I came across as opposing that, I didn't mean to. I was just addressing the question implied in the parent comment.
I apologize if I gave the wrong impression.
`tax`, `income tax`, `income tax return`, `income tax return form`, `income tax return form processor`, `income tax return form processor office`, etc.
Not that I think that's what's going on in the article's `woman CEO` examples.
And make you sound like an alien anthropologist, rather than, well, a human.