However, I know I cannot program productively for a solid 8 hours.
How many hours do you do, and how do you handle it on such contracts?
If I'm actively engaged with something, like a new algorithm, or the guts of a system, something really compelling and which is 'solvable', i.e., I've got everything nailed down enough that I can fit it into my head and start figuring out what bits are missing, I can achieve flow pretty easily and get maybe a solid 4 hours in that state, with another 4 hours taken up for less productive work getting into and out of that state, and for periodic breaks when I need them.
If it's defining the problem, exploratory coding to try and figure out how to interact with an external system (and that system is documented and sane), probably 3 in flow, with another 3-4 less productive; I'm nearly as productive as when I've got everything I need in my head, but I get drained faster.
If it's drudge work, or just hitting my head against a wall (anything trial and error-y, like interacting with something undocumented, stupid, inconsistent, painful, etc), perhaps 2 somewhat productive hours, over the course of 6 hours (the other 4 aren't productive -at all-), since every single thing will distract me, and after 6 I'm mentally exhausted.
EDIT: foz's comment x 100. Make it clear they're paying for exclusive rights to your time, not 8 hours of programming.
After 6-7 hours of programming, my code quality tends to dip dramatically, without me realizing.
With terrible impacts on the next day's productivity, of course.
Harder to do if your job involves only programming
Does it really matter how many hours you'll be productive? Hopefully this customer is paying for YOU and not your code. If not, how do you make it so they are paying for YOU and not your code?
I'm not a freelancer, I'm in a salary position. But I get the same amount per day regardless of if I write code for 8 hours, write emails for 12 hours, or only spend 4 hours in the office due to a company picnic. If someone asked me what my "day" rate is I'd say around $500, as that's roughly my employer's fully loaded cost for me to be employed for a day that I'm not on vacation.
When sat in their office I am sensitive to the perception that I'm not working hard -- and in normal management style, not worth the money (because I don't look busy).
I guess I also have a strong protestant morality of not overcharging - and if they hire me for an 8 hour day, I'd darn well better give them a proper 8 hours' of work.
If I was to hire you, I expect I will pay you your rate for the emails you send to me telling me status of your work, for the time you spend researching the problem at hand, and for telling me that if I compromise on one part of the development that I would get $BENEFIT and that I should change my specification to get $BENEFIT. None of this is writing code but all of it is very valuable.
I've come to realize that people who write code are not as valued by those who authorize the writing of checks as people who can communicate and get shit done. It doesn't matter if you write code well, it matters that you get shit done and communicate about it to others.
What are 50 hour a week and up programming jobs like? Do you just tough it out and code endlessly?
I think that ambiguity kills programming production, and in this industry there are copious amounts of horror stories about poorly defined projects. And I don't think that documentation is some sort of mindless work break either, as someone above eluded to. Being able to effectively explain your code from a technical and/or functional standpoint also takes focus and energy.
Also, as clarification, documentation can indeed be mindless. "This REST API has changed and needs up to date documentation; let me go look at the code and find the new endpoints and write them down and what arguments they take" is a completely menial task.
In good condition I exactly say like jos82.
When in pain (I have a back neck pain killing me since 2 weeks and it seems related to my working position) It is unsustainbale to focus even on other tasks than programming for more than 5 hours a day and sometimes less (like 3).
When going into burn-in (like mbenjaminsmith, or Daishiman) I can focus up to 8-10h+ a day, the problem is the burn-out: Months with reduced concentration and almost a negative productivity in quality and quantity some days.
When in good physical and psychological condition, I focus the same amount of time, but quality of code is way better.
At home, the lack of noise and unwanted interruption increases the capacity of concentration and I can code 6 hours with better quality. The lack of social interaction however on a long run however erodes my pleasure of working, so I don't do it too often. (but it should also happen in good working environment or with good mental Daishiman or walshemj).
Stresses debilitates me, so I code way slower and with poor quality during a crunch unless I kick a burn in.
That is the reason I prefer a balanced solution.
It is kind of funny we have the same feedbacks.
I have a theory that the difference between 4-5 and 5-6 is the difference between a crowdy working environment and a quiet one.
Could some of you tell whether you work in a crowded or a calm place too? It would be fun if I was right.
That's "active" programming time, meaning things like designing with software tools or pen/paper, literal programming time where I'm bashing on a keyboard and compiling stuff, and immediate testing activities.
I'm not including things like time for running automated testing suites, making general notes, or overheads like calls, meetings, and reviewing specs. I don't find these activities detract from my concentration on detailed technical tasks in most cases.
I've noticed that if something really grabs my attention -- maybe because it's a very interesting part of the system or maybe because it's an urgent bug fix or a huge deal is riding on it for my client -- I can do detailed technical work for considerably longer without suffering a drop in either equality or productivity, but these are exceptional cases and in short bursts for maybe a day or two at a time. It's not a level I can sustain for multiple weeks.
(Edit: To answer the question about contracts, if I'm billing on a time and materials basis then my contractual wording normally says I can bill the daily rate for any date on which services are provided, without reference to how exactly I will provided the services or any specific hours or number of hours. Sometimes this raises eyebrows when people first see it, usually if they are used to working with other people who bill by the hour. However, my experience has been that no serious prospect objects to the point of losing a deal over it, nor has it created any lack of trust or bad feeling once a client sees how it really works. In practice, I sometimes work only a couple of hours in a day because something has been held up on my client's end, and I think my record was something like an 18 hour day involving significant travel, and I would charge the same for both. At some point you just have to be sensible about these things and trust that it will work out fairly overall.)
This is almost never going to be solid programming time though, as you will need to communicate with the client, handle documentation and other tasks which legitimately take up part of the 8 hours. Also, you should take at least 1 or 2 breaks during the day which shouldn't be included in the 8 hours.
By the end of the day, you're not going to be programming as effectively as you were at the start. This is just the nature of working 8 hour days; the client won't expect you to be a machine. If you're really concerned about this, try to do all the difficult thinking and planning at the start of the day, leaving more straight-forward tasks for when you're tiring.
In short, say you'll work 8 hours and just do your best.
In these situations I make it clear that while I'm willing to make them my primary client my business does require me to attend to other matters such as administration, taxes, billing, lead generation, etc.
I never say they can expect X hours out of me a week because quite frankly I've never been good at maintaining a consistent hourly pace per week. When I was doing hourly I averaged about 20 hours a week of programming (I was pretty fanatical about starting/stopping the clock). When I would get closer to 30 that was when I would be pushing a deadline or getting close to burnout.
What I do now is get a sense of what they expect out of me in terms of reliability and production. This tends to be a lot of work up front because I'm building trust with the client. Such as meeting with them more frequently to get on the same page as them. But that up front work pays off dividends later on when I have to bail to attend to family or business matters. Eventually this settles down to weekly communication to see if you're actually meeting/exceeding the client's expectations.
Again I'd emphasize asking more questions about what they consider a day to be? Who knows it might just mean you working on their stuff for 5 hours a day :)
I don't quote clients based on how long I think it will take, or how long I think I can work. I quote them based on the profit I want to make. And some clients, who have projects I don't want to do, get quoted ridiculous rates. It's been somewhat surprising to see how many have gone even for that.
I charge per-day, not per-hour. I sometimes evaluate quality of life issues around a per-hour basis, but I think the smallest unit of work-time is a day, not an hour, so I charge by the smallest unit. I find this makes me a lot more honest about my time accounting, as there is no temptation to pad time with goofing off.
A good programmer should think forward in time and type rather less, coming up with a good logic and analysing problems take as much time as coding that thought into programs.
Also, when you do think for a long time, brain naturally needs rest, so if you're like me who can work alone, you can find out your best pattern, such as work a few hours then throw yourself on the bed, play with your phone etc and come back when your mind feels straight.
This makes me think the other thread with a poll mentioning how people are only productive for 2-4 hours a day kind of makes me wonder... Sure you may have to be at office for 8 hours and you could be productive for less than half of the time being there... But right now when I'm behind schedule from multiple clients, I work the whole day, even splitting the sleep time into 2 times for 4 hours, working only when my mind feels straight, I can definitely do 8 hours plus of decent quality work and do that for days until maybe once every 10 days I'm used up for most of that day.
It's definitely not easy for office workers to do same.
I work alone at home against multiple clients I know locally and if I'm assigned a whole project, obviously I quote for the entire project, so I may get lucky and go well as hourly basis pay but for assignments that are only tasked to fix small problems, I just give them quote of roughly $300 a day.
Try to think how worth your day can be when giving them quotes. If you're inexperienced and needs lots of time googling around, you should lower it and consider it a good chance to learn, not earn but if you're very effective against their problem for most of the day, give them a good one.
Also, don't start from lower point, because raising later considering it just won't cut it will raise their eye brows. If you ever feel you quoted too high, it's a good motivation to work more as well and make up for it.
For poorly defined requirements, a language I don't know, or any other "bullshit" variables, tack off two hours per bullshit variable. Hence if there are 3 or more bullshit variables, my productivity effectively goes to 0. (A bit tongue in cheek of course; really one should take responsibility for one's productivity no matter how much bullshit.)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7657502
The most popular answer was 2-4 hours.
Edit: I charge 1 day for these days. I get more than a days work done compared to other people in the office, so I feel it's fair.
Bill based on the value you bring, not the time you spend heads-down.
I've read enough by @bdunn, @patio11, @tpacek et al to know that billing based on the value I bring is the best way to bill. Getting to a position where clients will consider it is... not happening though.
How do I break this blocker?
The other alternative is billing on a per-project basis; that gives you precisely no protection against clients wasting your time, or changing your mind, or any number of other things.
I tend to be more productive if I work at a client's office rather than my usual coworking space. I assume that's because of feeling pressured to look like a good freelancer, but it makes me enjoy work a lot less.
Same here - on those days I fly, I look like a genius.
Unfortunately, the next day I'm burned out, and the one day they paid me for turns out to have to cover 2 days.
If I'm programming 10++ I'll usually burn out after a month or so. Burn out usually means that I don't have the focus or will to get in a solid 8, more like 4 - 6, for a period while I reset (whatever it is that gets reset).
It varies a lot with the amount of sleep I got the night before, which again varies a lot, having two small children :-)
But for freelancing I do quote 7-8 hours. I just program slower during that time, do easy tasks if any (css/html)
Not challenging you, just curious - how do you measure this?
Or comments like "are you chatting or are you working ? Why are you typing so fast".
My issue is that I sometimes jump into something too fast. I don't over think projects, and sometimes it leads to me making mistakes. But I am working on it.
Without sitting down and thinking I just don't have enough good ideas in my head which I could type in for 6 hours straight.
That being said, we do have a around 6h a week of Agile meetings. Usually split into 3 x 2h meetings. Depends on how each team wants to proceed.
Of course, if I have to attend meetings, talk to clients or work on the structure of a project, I'm not expected to do that in overtime. I cut in the 6 hours. But on a 7.5h shift, we are expected to spend 6 hours on average typing on the computer.
It's not like anybody is looking over my shoulder however. If you work faster by making pseudocode on paper before you start working, you would be allowed to.