Crows can perform as well as 7- to 10-year-olds on cause-and-effect tasks
news.ucsb.edu
news.ucsb.edu
Basically the experiment was to have a rectangular room with 4 white walls, and then another box with one blue wall.
Researchers put some food in the room to the left of the blue wall, showed it to a rat, then spun the rat around, and the rat got it right 50% of the time. (IE random chance.)
Researchers did the same experiment with kids, and kids under 6 failed every time. Though after age 6, kids start using spacial language and can say the phrase "left of the blue wall", which implies to the researcher we use language to connect different disparate parts of the brain.
More on this during this radiolab episode: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91725-words/
I've always felt this was the case in my own mind. Language is the serialization format for abstract concepts.
This is why I'm very interested in constructed languages. I think it might help human cognition if we had a more efficient serialization format for internal concept transport.
Woa nice! Good analogy. Will steal.
language is just our best tool for sharing feelings, concepts, etc. funny to think it's (probably) ultimately not the best tool for that. :)
Language probably is our best way of communicating abstract concepts, however (now, are feelings abstract or concrete? ;-).
example: i want to go out to dinner tonight, but i feel like we went out to dinner too many times this week.
example: i am happy that the Yankees won, but i am unhappy with Derek Jeter's performance.
communicating these feelings clearly will, without better technology, require words.
more importantly, interpreting body language is simply prone to error. assuming two honest parties, it is much harder to misinterpret words.
not to take this off the deep end, but i'll try to clarify my point.
language (body or verbal) is just our current best attempt at getting your brain to feel what my brain feels (feelings, sentiments, concepts, anything). my hunch they are both terribly insufficient compared to some technology we may be able to develop in the future.
that is, why serialize the data at all? a literal data transfer seems more reliable. for now, it's because we have no other choice.
For you maybe, but some people work with images only and most people use a mix of language and images. Autistic people tend to work exclusively with images, or exclusively with words. Some also use music or numbers. You don't need to speak any audible language to invent or understand things. Your own internal language is enough. You'll just be so isolated that you're unlikely to be understood by the masses, that's all.
> For you maybe, but some people work with images only and most people use a mix of language and images.
There must be some variation across the population in this regard (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5256057). Though I can think in images, concepts, words, sounds, smells, and tastes, I've said before on HN that my thoughts don't seem "official" until they've been serialized as a stream of words (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5256126).
xu do kakne bacru la jbobau
I might learn it in the future.
How can this be??? If they didn't have the ability to keep track of which way was which, shouldn't they have failed 50% of the time, like the rats?
So it's possible the relevant processing centers are not separate in them, as they are in mammals, and do not need an internal language to bridge them. Therefore, while it's possible they do have the same problem and solution as us, this experiment doesn't imply it.
I wonder if there's a way to test which it is? e.g. something analogous the interfering with this internal language in humans that a commentor mentioned.
Speech uses the same part of the brain as thought apparently, so making someone say words prevents them from thinking during that time.
Only slightly related, but this is why I listen to audiobooks every night to fall to sleep. If I'm listening to someone else, I almost literally can't "think" so my brain chatter is basically eradicated and I fall asleep. I know it's not the same for everyone, but I basically turn into a mindless automaton if I'm actively listening to someone else as I'm an extremely verbal thinker.
Not that I wouldn't know what you said, but I won't have a deep understanding, I won't be able to use what you said to get work done. This is especially bad with phone conversations.
But if you write it down, then we're talking. I can digest written stuff extremely well.
An even better read, IMO, but I am partial to the Corvus corax... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/254704.Mind_of_the_Raven
1. Migration. 2. Nest-building.
If you gave the same pile of materials to a robin and to me, I think the robin might do a better job of building a nest with it. I base this conjecture upon robin nests I've seen around my house.
Brain-machine interface with weak AI (translation) could drastically alter the intelligence debate.
I've never seen a human fly and well over 99% of my work is performed in the x and y axis. When communicating directions, I'm rarely concerned about z. Simple graphing tools (e.g., paper and pen) can be used to illustrate my point further.
http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/crows-could-be-the-key-to...
But the problem then is to get onto the road to eat the content of the nut without being run over.
Well, crows learned to drop the nuts at pedestrian crossings, and wait for read lights stopping all cars, to go collect the reward. Problem solved.
http://www.nytimes.com/video/nyregion/100000001595360/tick-t...
I'm running my own little social experiment: whenever I'm walking in the 'hood and I see a crow drop a walnut, I walk over and crush it. So far the crows have not started dropping nuts near me when they see me, but I have hopes :-)
Related, crow vending machine: http://www.ted.com/talks/joshua_klein_on_the_intelligence_of...
Here is a neat review relating to songbirds:
it's not like the typical 7-10 year old kid is a fountain of smartness. supervision is still needed, it is not able to sustain its existence by itself, would starve or get killed through its own inexperience - which makes those little animals superior.
In short, survival skills are not a good metric for intelligence, you can have one without the other.
Maybe not a 10 year old, but a 12 year old in the Industrial Revolution would have been earning enough to cover his costs and contribute to the family. A 14 year old could also be doing just fine as a mother. It's not as if teenagers' poor life-skills are functions of their age, we just choose not to let them have the requisite experience until they are "old enough." Children are technically capable of much more than we give them credit for, we just would rather they spend time gaining the education to be knowledge workers instead of replaceable cogs in factories.
You couldn't just throw an average modern 10-year-old on the streets and expect him to be fine, but it's historical fact that it is possible for children not to be so helpless.
It goes without saying that a 7 yr old human can do a much wider variety of intellectual tasks an adult crow, however.
One response to this would be to conclude that it's not like the typical Harvard student is a fountain of smartness; it is not able to sustain its existence by itself, would starve or get killed through its own experience (true enough; the average Harvard student wouldn't survive a month lost alone in the jungle) - which makes little animals superior.
A more sensible response would be to notice that humans actually are smarter than birds (I'm prepared to revisit that conclusion if any crows or pigeons can post reasoned arguments to the contrary), but that you can prove anything is superior to anything else if you cherry-pick the test carefully enough.
Imagine if Google made an alternate set of tests for low income applicants that let them in at a 200% higher rate and announced "low income applicants perform at 22 year old level in Google applications with modified test".
The Jesuits put this a little more sinisterly: "Give me the child until he is seven and I’ll give you the man".