Comment by slg | Hacker News Reader

Comment by slg | Hacker News Reader

I know this is a minor point of the article, but as someone with a degree from Harvard Extension I need to weigh in on that part of the story. I hate people who make this lie of ommission. Harvard Extension isn't Harvard College or Harvard Business School, but it still provides a very good education with great flexibility at an even better price. However, there is a small minority of people that continuely try to pass off their degree (or in this case a lack of degree, which is an even bigger crime considering that both the admission and graduate rates of the College and Extension School are roughly inverses of each other) as something more than it is. This isn't a fabricated credential on a resume; it is a lie that makes other people guilty by association. Everytime someone confesses or is caught doing this my degree becomes devalued. It establishes a repuation for HES students and alumni as unethical Harvard wannabees that are looking for any way to cut corners. The lesson to learn is not about managing your own reputation for ethics and honesty, but to also remember that you are a member of community. You don't only represent yourself. You represent yourself, your company, your friends, your family, your school, your industry, your hometown, your gender, your race, your sexual preference...

Obligatory [semi-]relevant xkcd: http://xkcd.com/385/

I also took a few Harvard Extension School classes (mostly Greek and Latin, but also Distributed Computing). I didn't earn a degree, just took a few things that interested me. It's on my resume as Harvard Extension School, and I have to actively correct people who think it's more than it is. My jokey way of putting it is that HES "takes anyone with a credit card." What's really embarrassing is when someone introduces me as someone who "went to Harvard." They were great classes, especially the ancient Greek, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to learn what I did, but it's not like I did my undergrad there. I fact I applied and didn't get in. :-)

As long as you put "Extension School", It seems strange that someone would think you went to undergrad there.

Then again, I ride the Ⓣ every day. Maybe people just have no clue what "Harvard Extension School" is.

People have no idea; once they see the "Harvard", they can hardly see anything else.

The confusion extends even to Harvard grads. Because of the mix at alumni events of Harvard College graduates, MBAs, JDs, MDs, Extension School grads, etc., sometimes the organizers print up name tags with the degree abbreviations on them. It does little good, though: I've had Harvard MBAs ask me what my "A.B." means. (It's an abbreviation for the Latin artium baccalaureus, pretentious Harvard-speak for "bachelor's degree". I.e., it means I "went to Harvard" in the colloquial sense of the phrase.) As far as most of them know, A.B. and A.L.B./A.A. (the Extension School degrees) might as well be the same thing.

I would echo your point about actively correcting people. It is something I find myself doing all the time. The problem is that it often isn't worth going in-depth describing the school, most people simply don't care that much. My jokey explanation is that it is "Harvard's version of community college". Funny thing is some people will come away even more impressed after a comment like this thinking you are incredibly humble. The Harvard brand has a lot of power.

> My jokey way of putting it is that HES "takes anyone with a credit card."

That's nice & humble of you, but it's not precisely true. There are very few requirements for taking a random course or two (or 20) at HES, but to be admitted to a degree program at HES is not so easy. You have to take a certain number of HES courses and earn a high GPA in them to be admitted to a degree program. Then, of course, you have to pass the full slate of courses to earn your Bachelor's degree.

Some people also seem to be under the impression that HES courses aren't as difficult as regular Harvard College courses. If anything, I'd say there's far more grade inflation in Harvard College than in HES, i.e., it's probably easier to make an A in a lot of (though obviously not all) regular Harvard courses than it is in Extension courses.

This is part of what I referred to in my first post and is usually what I mention when someone is truly interested in the school. Harvard College does its credentialing when you apply. A very low percentage of people who apply to the College get in, but almost everyone who does will walk away with a degree. The Extension School moves that credentialing until after the student enrolls in classes. There are virtually no barriers to take classes and the application process isn't hard to get through, but the amount of students who leave the school with a degree is very low. Therefore the school is more of a meritocracy. Almost anyone who is capable and determined enough to earn a degree is able to regardless of their prior educational history. The last time I saw stats on it, the actual percentage of people who apply to Harvard College that earn a degree was very close to the number of people who take a class at Harvard Extension school that earn a degree.

Sure, but a lot of the people taking classes at the Extension School don't want a degree. For example, I had students whose employers were paying for them to take a single course to give them some background knowledge or insight into their jobs. They're not looking to graduate; just to take a class or two that will help them with their careers.

That is a good point and the numbers aren't measuring the exact same thing (on the flip side of your example is the number of applicants to Harvard College who might not attend even if accepted). I didn't intend to reference them as some justification that the two schools are in any way equal. The only reason to really compare the two rates is because they have similar values and highlight the differences between the two schools. The toughest part of the College is getting in, the toughest part of the Extension School is getting out.

As a grad student at Harvard I was involved in teaching several courses at Harvard Extension School. While the students were generally motivated and enthusiastic about the course material, it was a very different academic environment, one that was not as intellectually rigorous.

You are right about grade inflation, but the difference in the level of rigor between the two schools means that not all As are equal.

    > > My jokey way of putting it is that HES "takes anyone with a credit card."
    > That's nice & humble of you, but it's not precisely true.

Thanks for pointing that out. I meant no disrespect to the folks who sign up to HES for the long haul.

Someone mentioned that HES courses are less rigorous, and I believe that's true. (Although Greek and Latin were still pretty tough!) On the other hand, the students I met were all extremely motivated and hard-working. It changes things a lot when everyone in class is attending voluntarily on their limited free time and out of their own pocket. I'm sure we weren't as smart or intellectually curious as an undergrad Harvard class, but I had way more respect for my peers there than I did in my own undergrad setting.

There are two separate problems with HES identity and association.

The first is that HES's own guidelines instruct students to list their degrees in ways that can be confusing. See: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/lamont/2013/09/18/harvard-exten...

The second problem, and I think the reason behind the first problem, is that the formal way to list a degree on a resume is not by the school one attended but by the university that grants the degree. That is, an HBS graduate would list their degree as an MBA from Harvard University; an HLS graduate would list their degree as a JD from Harvard University. Harvard's method of identifying the school is that it awards unique degrees according to which school was intended. Thus an MBA will always come from HBS. A JD will always come from HLS. There is no BA or MA from Harvard Extension School, but rather a BLA or MLA. In this way, the correct listing of a BLA from Harvard Extension School is distinguishable from a BA from Harvard College, but of course, only for a person who knows the difference (or doesn't assume the "L" is a typo). This is, in my view, more a problem of poor convention than of anything else.

Yes, there are also people who plainly abuse language to mislead people. They make people like myself ('07 ALMM program) very self-conscious when it comes to talking about my education there. I never brag about the Harvard name. If pressed I refer to my program as "Harvard's night school for working adults" (because let me assure you - nobody knows what the hell "Extension School" mean anyway). It's a shame that there's no clear, accurate way for HES students to talk about their programs without denigrating their own accomplishments or risking being impostors.

Finally, there is one bit of praise I would like to bestow upon HES that cannot be said for any of Harvard's other schools: HES is the most meritocratic academic system I have ever seen. Your success boils down to whether you can do the work and whether you put in the time. It doesn't matter what your grades were in high school. It doesn't matter how much money your family has donated. It doesn't matter if you can throw a football. The requirements for admittance are as black and white as they come. If you show up, do the work, and get good grades, you'll get admitted. If you take three classes and can't consistently get Bs or better, you will be rejected no matter how much money or legacy you waive in front of the school. I hope someday the rest of academia will consider this model.

I hadn't encountered this, being across the Atlantic, but the behaviour is not uncommon. I once knew a man who in his younger days was really interested in puppetry, an got into a art-college-type puppet-making and puppetry course in the English town of Oxford. He lost interest after a year and dropped out, and of course tried to chance his arm with 'studied for a year at Oxford' on his CV for a while after.

The funny thing is that this lie would only work outside of Boston - in Boston proper, companies big and small see this all the time, and are very alert for it (in part because of the presence of successful Extension alumni at the firms).

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