Europe Wants Apple and Google to Fix In-App Payments Problem
bits.blogs.nytimes.com
bits.blogs.nytimes.com
Fuck that. Thank you Google for leading the way with this. Free should be free as in the entire thing for free. Or let me pay for the damn thing once and let me go about my day.
Most of the big money-maker IAPs are so devious because they sell the same thing that people 20 years ago got from gaming magazines: Cheat codes.
The difference: These cheat codes work only once.
F2P games just extract money from you randomly, repeatedly, indefinitely. Completion without payment is no longer a matter of skill; in many cases skill has zero bearing on how much a F2P game costs to play. Instead, they charge you money and to avoid paying, playing the game is dragged out in time, filled with more tedious repetition and grinding, or you have to wait 48 hours between actions instead of a handful of minutes. The developers know that nobody wants to wait 48 hours between actions in a city-building/dungeon-building game, and that nobody wants to plant and harvest the same crop a zillion times before buying a single upgrade, so they use those unattractive barriers as a lever to get you to spend money.
Also, as a rather significant difference: For an arcade game to be successful they had to make it as appealing as possible and have lots of replay value, so you'd keep coming back and pumping quarters in to get better. They also needed a good skill curve, so it would take as long as possible before you got good enough to complete it on one quarter. And they wanted it to be fun enough that you'd still want to play even once you 'mastered' it in that fashion.
In comparison, F2P games are designed around the assumption that players will quickly grow bored with them, and that many players will never like the game enough to spend money. They tune it all around averages and sums, around trying to extract as much money as possible out of the people who do pay, as quickly as possible and for as long as possible until those people quit playing too. F2P games are not built around dedicated, satisfied players.
I encountered an arcade machine once on vacation in Spain. Bubble Bobble. The differences: I paid before playing. The coin let me play for as long as my skills could keep up with the game. The game was entirely skill-based, not a long-term strategy game designed to maximize my retention.
Can't they just play on consoles?
Not sure whenever this is still the case nowadays or had already been fixed - last time I've made payments on Play Store was months ago.
I know it's devious for app developers to go after kids but you can prevent it without any government intervention with a little responsibility on your part. You wouldn't give your child a credit card and let them loose in a toy store either.
I know it's devious for app developers to go after kids
Agreed. Google is doing something about that.
Apple store does not allow you to download anything, not even free apps, if you do not have credit card set up. So, if you wanted anything on that device, you had to configure it there.
Essentially, parental controls are getting better slowly, but only lately and under pressure of regulators.
The other issues are already existing regulations about marketing targeted at children and when the word "free" is a lie. EU restricts kids targeted advertisements in general and has rules against lies in advertisements. A lot of debate is friction about whether app stores should follow the same rules as everybody else and how to interpret those rules in apps.
Not that that helps right now but I tested it out and it is pretty damn impressive. Glad I don't have kids right now though so I don't need to deal with it at all. >.<
If there was a free market here, there would not be any need for this, products would be priced at sustainable levels, and I as a parent would never ever ever purchase a game that had in app purchases.
I would rather that I could download apps from anywhere and there was still a rating and quality mechanism. Many options exist for that. But I will take this as an alternative
I think the European Union has this weird attitude that a free market works the best and where there is no free market then there should be regulation to guide the path towards the ideal, or there should be protection against the excesses of the unfree market. I, in the main, agree. It all kind of depends on your definition of free and regulation.
I have been annoyed by upgrades to apps that litter screen with triggers to buy new stuff. For example flightradar24 I bought a full version of the app. In an update they positioned tiggers on every city to get me to buy upgrade for every city to view departure and arrival time. Suddenly my app is visually broken and I have to pay for the upgrade to fix it. And I can't even downgrade. I really don't care about departure/arrival schedules for airports... this does not seem right to me.
I guess that breaks one of the core rules of the interface design - of least surprise. (or recurring one that turns into a severe irritation).
An open market fixes an awful lot of things - as long as it is an open market. I will add that this mobile app market is massively dominated by two players and that if mobile comms is as important to the next decade as we think it is, that is bad for everyone.
Apple should not have a lock on the software that runs the lives of half the western world. No one should.
I however despair - film studios and game studios regularly go bankrupt yet there is no shortage of subsidy for the next
Quality mechanisms are a viable function of markets - whatever checks apple does could be done by any other body that can be paid for it. A label of "safe to download" is valuable. A simple central registry and hashes would be one way to do it.
Overall I think In app purchases are shit, in the way paying people in company money to spend in company store was shit. In some cases an in app purchase is convenient but in the vast majority of cases (read games) half the game time is geared towards "buy more". It poisons the game, the trust between gamer and game writer and adds no value to the world.
This is not the manufacturing base we can build a prosperous new society on.
Who do you picture paying for the quality checking body? Consumers won't normally pay and if the developers pay then the incentives are all wrong.
I agree consumable in-app purchases in games are usually shit. I can live with charging for more levels although it might be good if there could be reviews of the particular purchases. Also the only way to currently offer a trial is to use in-app purchases.
To declare an interest I do have a non-game app with in-app purchases. In-app purchases are currently the only way to offer a try before you buy experience. I offer an "Everything" purchase and some separate features intended to justify the everything price and to steer people to that purchase.
Apps today feel like wheat production in mid west in the late nineteenth century - soooo much of it that Chicago became rich while farmers simply sold for less than the cost of transport. Eventually prices became more same but it hurt - a lot.
Quality checking bodies are an interesting problem. Consumer magazines (Which? in UK) are always struggling, but do their best. But in the end we regulate what we care about - making heart pacemakers. Guess what it's not a free market. Making cars or houses or kettles. Standards bodies and regulations and so on.
Maybe apps aren't important enough to regulate. For consumer games, I would probably agree, but that's not what I think the future of mobile is. I remember Sinclairs and Commodores and they were all about games. Maybe Microsoft is right and frankly Apple is going to die in the consumer space again while all the money is in business mobiles.
I'm not convinced but I am convinced that mobile computing matters more than just games.
Wouldn't wheat be the perfect example of a free market? There might be reasons to dislike the lack of choice of app stores but I think it is completely orthogonal to the oversupply and the pricing issues you talk about.
In the UK all sales to consumers are regulated to some extent (trading standards, Unfair Commercial Practices Directive).
In terms of something like Which? It takes a lot of time and staff to do well, if you think that you can make a serious go of app reviews on that scale good luck to you but I don't think the market will support it (it may not even support the level of checking that Apple does).
I would respectfully disagree. Market clearing is I think technically the price for the next unit of production, but even in a world of zero marginal cost (not quite true) then the capital cost still needs to be paid back (laptop, time spent coding flappy up and flappy down). So perhaps the clearing price is the expected number if sales divided by capex?
As for setting up which?, no thank you :-) But Apples main justification for App Store is to provide a safe user experience. And I think that has value even if I fail against it. I think I is much more viable to label or test all apps than all websites and people at least pay attention to googles "this web site is not safe"
I have sadly kind of forgotten where this thread started as my HN times are about 12 hours apart, and yet I have been surprised that wondering around saying "free market good" has been taken quite badly.
I am in favour of regulation btw (far more than I think we are over regulated at least)
> I would respectfully disagree. Market clearing is I think technically the price for the next unit of production, but even in a world of zero marginal cost (not quite true) then the capital cost still needs to be paid back (laptop, time spent coding flappy up and flappy down). So perhaps the clearing price is the expected number if sales divided by capex?
This is closer to reality (and further from economic theory but that is a different rant[0]).
The trouble is to decide whether to make the investment of that capital cost you need to rely on that other economics assumption: perfect information. The real world doesn't provide perfect information of future customer behaviour so you don't know at the start if you are making Flappy Bird or Floppy Bird. Once you have made it your aim is to maximise your income from it (given the zero marginal cost in the App store). That maximisation needs to occur at a time when the capital cost has already been spent so the capex doesn't actually affect the price you charge. Even if you are making a loss increasing the price doesn't help as less people will buy it (you were already at the profit maximisation point) and if you were making a profit cutting the price reduces the profit.
Note that even the information at the time to set the price isn't available so you are guessing again there without the economists perfect information assumption.
Free markets are good but especially in the real world they are not always optimal and market failure isn't unusual. I think app review (at least the keeping malware out, not necessarily the Apple payment lock in part) is a public good but one that would be hard to get people to voluntarily pay for separately and some of the benefit is communal (you benefit from me not having a malware infested phone). We might end up in agreement here.
Yeah, regulation is a balancing act.
[0] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Debunking-Economics-Revised-Expanded...
The way startup funding for the cowboy end of the games business works allows the well funded companies to give much more away. What has occurred is the stakes are now out of control. Admittedly a hit game can bring in hundreds of millions, but to make or market it you'll need to spend a very significant fraction of that. This has the side effect of encouraging wild conservatism of design and price gouging as risk minimisation strategies.
The mobile part of the industry at this point needs someone to do what Nintendo did in the 80s, but it's totally unclear who or how that could possibly happen.
What exactly? Genuinely curious.
Games seems to be extremely hard business these days.
But if there was not just one or two portals, then the normal mechanisms of product discovery would take place in which advertising, quality, reputation and luck would differentiate products and allow prices to reflect costs.