Germany arrests suspected US spy | Hacker News Reader

Germany arrests suspected US spy

bbc.com

157 pointsetimberg28 comments

Important additional info from the original Der Spiegel report[0]

The suspect initially offered his services to Russian intelligence for financial gain. Apparently this is what alerted him to German counterintel. There was then an offer made to a representative of the USA.

But most important, Spiegel reports that it hasn't been confirmed yet that this USA representative was actually American or acting in the capacity of the government, suggesting that it may have been a counterintelligence operation.

[0] http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bnd-mitarbeiter-so...

It seems that the various Spiegel articles contradict each other: In the article I read it was stated that he already spied for the US and wanted to spy for the Russians too[0]. Both versions seem possible, will be interesting to see which one is true in the end.

[0] http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bnd-mitarbeiter-un...

The guy got arrested because it was thought that he had been spying for the Russians. That explains the arrest then an American spy would never get arrested in Germany, Americans – even American spies – are considered 'friends' after all.

That is probably why Chancellor Merkel had to call President Obama: To explain why the Germans caused such embarrassment by arresting an American spy …

American spy != spying for America.

Sadly, you're probably mostly right -- but let's not forget the story of Robert Seldon Lady in Italy. On occasion European states do the right thing, despite being in bed with the US on most things, international law be dammed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/18...

>The suspect initially offered his services to Russian intelligence for financial gain. Apparently this is what alerted him to German counterintel. There was then an offer made to a representative of the USA.

The article you link does not corroborate this. Actually it reads like he approach the Americans first, got money for it, went to the Russians and was caught then. (And this makes more sense too, if him contacting the Russians alerted German counterintelligence why would they not have apprehended him immediately, given that the material he offered is related to ongoing affairs?)

Every time "Germany" and "privacy" end up in the same sentence, inevitably there will be a reference to STASI. There is also a subtle message there: Germans only care about their privacy because of STASI. As if the others that had not been subjected to STASI methods of surveillance should not be worried. "If you see something, keep calm and carry on"... edit: more quotes

No, but most of the time, people only care about something if they have any experience with it.

In most of the Western countries I have been to, regular people don't care too much about surveillance, using the old argument of "if you haven't done anything bad you shouldn't be worried". However, in countries like mine(Poland) which were communist, where every phone call was listened to, there was censorship, the government ran huge archives with notes on everyone who could be of any political interest(basically what the NSA is doing now), people are very,very sensitive about surveillance. Why? Because a lot of older people understand that just because you haven't done anything wrong doesn't mean that you are safe. I think the younger folk is beginning to forget about this, but a lot of parents are doing a good job of making sure their children understand that government surveillance of citizens = bad.

Americans and British people simply have no frame of reference(and I am not saying this as an insult), so of course they do not make comparisons to STASI methods - they simply never had STASI.

You said "No", but I don't find the contradiction...

> As if the others that had not been subjected to STASI methods of surveillance should not be worried.

He contradicts that sentence? (At least in my understanding) Why shouldn't the people be worried? They aren't worried, but they should be.

You - "If you see something, keep calm and carry on..."

Me - "No(...as in, no, do not keep calm and carry on, because....)"

OK, I get it, I should have put that in quotes, because that is the message I perceive from BBC, not my message.

There is also a steady stream of propaganda in Germany concerning the Stasi. (Just like references to Iran and Russia in American media--never good, at best neutral, usually negative. There are actually positive stories on China now, though they be few.) I'm sure Germany considers such news "socially conscious" but in reality its just "propaganda".

The reference makes it relevant to Germans' ongoing political instruction.

The reason for the mostly negative news about the Stasi might be that the Stasi didn't do any good?

The reason for the mostly negative news about the Stasi might be that the Stasi didn't do any good?

I don't think GP opposes that. But in recent years there really are noticable efforts to construct Stasi and other aspects of the GDR as the prototypical evil. There are e.g. redefinitions of nazi museums to "museums about the history of the German dictatorships", equalizing Stasi with the Gestapo etc. Note that this shift in the political discourse has no corresponding shift in the academic discourse among historians. Of course both were dictatorships, but that's about where the similarities end. The Stasi did not systematically sack thousands of dissidends and tortured them to death. Methodologically Stasi is more similar to the current BND: The focus was on gathering intelligence, infiltrating dissident groups and "Zersetzung" of dissident individuals.

Stasi is relevant because methods Stasi used are relevant.

Stasi considered arrests and torture to be ineffective and crude methods when controlling people. They wanted something that was harder to detect even for the victims. The oppression and surveillance Stasi directed towards typical citizen or dissident was not brutal as in "you have to fear for your life", especially in the last decades of DDR.

Stasi perfected the technique called Zersetzung. It was form of psychological harassment and character assassination that maintained plausibe deniability. They falsified information and caused mental stress. For high value targets it could include breaking into their house and altering furniture. For most people it was the threat of being inconvenienced, life being derailed and social relationships disrupted. Not getting into school, not getting the job or apartment you wanted. False rumors about you. Social relationships being broken. No-fly list for your life.

There is potential for the same thing happening in the west as a result of more efficient surveillance. Some black box algorithm determines that this guy acts in a way that is above some threshold and your life will be somewhat more shitty from that day onward. You just don't know why.

For anyone who's interested in this bit of history, the Stasi museum in Berlin is well worth a visit. I recommend taking the tour, the guides do a great job in helping to make sense of all the artifacts on display. http://www.stasi-museum.de/en/enindex.htm

On the same topic, I would recommended visiting Terror Haza[0] (House of Terror) in Budapest, Hungary. As far as I remember, it was the old office of the Nazi local secret police and then the Communist local secret police. It is now a museum dedicated to what has been done by both regimes, and it has a really nice "visual" approach. Just as an example, the "role switch" of the secret police from Nazi to Communist (made most of the time by the same people), was well represented by a room full of lockers, with two dummies with the two corresponding different uniforms set on a rotating base and with memorabilia of the time including contract that was signed by Nazi secret police officer to vow that they have changed their mind and that now believed in the new regime.

[0] http://www.terrorhaza.hu/

I recently read The File by Timothy Garton Ash, a British journalist who spent a fair amount of time in East Germany in the last decade of the DDR. After reunification he was able to obtain his Stasi file. He learned how the Stasi perceived him as a risk and began contacting those who snitched on him.

The stories of how some of the informants became informants are fascinating. One cooperated with the Stasi in order to obtain exit visas for official travel. Some were Ash's friends seeking to boost their careers, some were just pleased to do their part in furthering the cause of socialism.

Ash was never imprisoned or tortured and could leave whenever he pleased (though he was eventually barred from entering the DDR). He didn't really suffer at the hands of the Stasi but the book is a terrific look at the Stasi's surveillance and intimidation through the eyes of a single individual.

http://www.amazon.com/The-File-A-Personal-History/dp/0679777...

"he was able to obtain his Stasi file" sounds a bit like this was something special (I'm sorry if this is wrong, English is not my first language).

Just to clarify:

"Everyone has the right to inspect those documents that created the STASI about themselves. More than a half million people have made use of this option since 1992."[1]

[1] http://www.bstu.bund.de/DE/Akteneinsicht/Privatpersonen/Priv... (loose translation)

That might just be poor wording on my part. Ash doesn't try to make it out as something exclusive, he devotes a significant portion of the book to Germany's efforts to bring the Stasi's work to light and the effects of that effort on German reunification.

My dad's Stasi files stated that he read a certain church related newspaper in public. There also were photographs of me at a very young age in the files. I guess they found them when they were routinely opened up personal letters.

I'm pretty sure NSA can access the same information about what I read and how my child looks like and I'm really worried about that. And when I post something NSA related on Twitter and the next moment my web browser crashes, I really feel the mental stress you're talking about.

Stasi was different though, because their IMs would be your best friends and neighbors. Our weakness is the technology we use to talk to each other.

Sounds like a corollary to Godwin's Law! :)

Yeah but unlike the Nazi, Stasi memories are still fresh and people care about it in other ways than "universal boogieman" and "cheap way to an oscar".

I cannot recommend the film "The Lives of Others" too highly.

Go watch it.

plus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_(2012_film)

After the movie, read about the life of Ulrich Mühe, the main actor [1] - it's harrowing how closely his life resembled the movie.

>Mühe's response when asked how he prepared for his role in Das Leben der Anderen was, "I remembered."

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_M%C3%BChe#Personal_life

It's about time something happens.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com