> I don't want to downplay the situation but I feel like it's your responsibility
Article about sexual harassment on HN. Came to comments expected victim blaming, 2nd sentence in 2nd comment.
Well done.
Article about sexual harassment on HN. Came to comments expected victim blaming, 2nd sentence in 2nd comment.
Well done.
So let me clarify: I don't believe it was her fault in any way. Quite the opposite, I believe 100% that the guy is at fault here. My point was more related to the fact that we (myself included) tend to maintain relationships that are clearly unhealthy in hindsight. I probably should have chosen a better word than responsibility seeing as it was more a comment aimed at the apparent lack of capacity to adequately disengage from unhealthy situations a lot of adults seem to exhibit. We're not used to saying "no" and to moving on. I was only saying this because similar situations happened to me in which I wished later that I could have disengaged and saved me some heartache.
I believe (only from reading this complaint) that the behavior exhibited by Mateen is unacceptable and reprehensible and that he's clearly at fault. My intention was not to blame her but merely to express a general observation regarding a lot of relationship failures I witnessed. So if this came across as victim blaming I sincerely apologize. It wasn't the intent.
The point is that reading something like this, the least interesting topic is what the complainant could have done differently.
The principle discussion is: never shoulda happened. Inappropriate, unacceptable. Not second guessing the strategy of someone in an impossible situation.
But you led with that.
That's why you got called out.
I wish I was taught any kind of disengagement skill when I was being bullied as a kid, even though it never should have happened (and since I can foresee the uproar here, I'm in no way implying the two are equivalent but merely noticing similarities).
Sure, some of it - most of it - might be good advice (e.g. don't date cofounders/coworkers) but in the end that advice in itself won't do anything if the other person is an asshole. Whitney could have avoided a relationship and tried to defuse things as best as she could, but Justin could still have been an ass and harass her for rejecting him.
Certainly in this thread any advice is victim blaming.
But that doesn't make the advice useless or pointless or harmful.
And it's certainly on topic for HN - psychology of dealing with difficult people applies to work and suppliers and customers and regulators and yes, unrepentant assholes.
All adults maintain responsibility for their own actions. That goes for both the assholes and the victims. Ideally, everyone would get exactly the same training, because everyone has the capacity to be either an asshole or a victim.
Of course we know that in our particular society (as in many others) women are at higher risk for being abused, and men are more likely to be the abuser. So it seems like there should still be an equal amount of education, but that men should probably receive greater feedback about how (and why) not to be an asshole, and women should receive greater feedback on how to protect themselves from assholes.
It's a valid point, and it doesn't mean you're blaming the victim, but it's perhaps not the best time bring it up, and people might easily misconstrue what you're saying.
We don't have any indication that she lacked the capacity to disengage. She was dating her boss, and may have feared retaliation.
That's one reason dating your superiors or direct reports is a big no-no. The power dynamic can only be managed by the most mature couples, and even then it's a huge liability for the company.
Is it wise for two founders to date? I'd say no. She must share some of the blame, and who's to say what his side of the story is, and what exhibits he has showing her in a bad light?
In your world, calling someone a whore in front of their co-workers is both acceptable and not sexual harassment?
It's nonsense to suggest that somehow he was forced hurl such insults at her.
The only person responsible their own actions is that same person; you don't get to abdicate responsibility for your actions just because you dated someone.
What happened before he called her a whore? Did she bait him, did she harass him, did she cheat on him, etc etc
My point was when you date someone, there's often blame on both sides when things turn sour.
Because it's irrelevant.
>>What happened before he called her a whore? Did she bait him, did she harass him, did she cheat on him, etc etc
It was his choice to call her a whore in front of their colleagues (and note: this is just one example from the harassment claim, there're plenty of unsavoury actions quoted).
Words said or past actions don't give you the right to demean someone at the workplace.
>>My point was when you date someone, there's often blame on both sides when things turn sour.
Which, again, is irrelevant to creating a hostile working environment.
When you're a grown-up, you accept responsibility for your actions, and that the only person making decisions about what you do is - guess what? - you.
If you've had a messy breakup, well, honestly, that really really sucks.
It absolutely does not give you the right to harass the other person.
You are aware that an argument of self-defence is used whilst being tried for murder, right?
Anyway - inappropriateness of your comparison aside - fine, you don't believe in taking responsibility for your own day-to-day actions.
I hope that changes someday.
* This is only one side of the story.
* It's completely plausible that she did bad things as well.
* It's for the court to decide. Not random internet lynch mobs based on biased one sided information.
But you did not say "perhaps", or "plausible". you used the word "must" - "she must share blame".
One founder was removed from the "Founder's Suite," because it was believed that having a woman as a founder would work against the company's valuation/brand-equity. That is black and white sexual harassment. It is discrimination based on gender. Period.
Secondly: Founders date. Employees date. Subordinates and Managers, date. It happens. It's not "should they," it's that "they do" and there are appropriate methods to mitigate this. What is personal, is personal—and what is professional, is professional.
HR departments have methods to mitigate this. Startups being "above" or "too cool" to engage HR professionals early in their lifecycles, are to blame for most of these kinds of problems. GitHub, now Tinder, and many others I can't think of off the top of my head. HR exists to keep the personal, personal—and the professional, professional.
There is NO blame for a relationship going sour, at the professional level. None. Our industry has a ways to go. We all need to be in on that, together.