Comment by jfindley | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jfindley | Hacker News Reader

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First off, thankyou for a detailed and well laid out post.

I do however think that there is a material difference between hosting unpleasant speech (to which the counter is speech pointing out that the speaker is wrong/idiotic/etc) and hosting malware/botnet sites (to which the counter is... what? what IS the counter to a sufficiently large botnet? ultimately we all have a limit at which point we can receive no more traffic. You might not have hit it - yet - but you will).

The internet - as you are aware - is based on protocols not designed with any significant security in mind. No-one in their right mind would today sit down and design something like BGP, for example. With that in mind, any large provider (or large consumer with capability to cause harm) has the responsibility to be a good citizen of the internet, and not to (by action or inaction) advance the agendas of those who would see its demise. As much as it might be convenient from an operational POV, and justifiable from a moral POV, washing your hands of responsibility and saying "It's not up to us, it's up to the courts" just doesn't work when the infrastrucure we're all building on is so very fragile. I'd also like to note that there's a semi-hidden US bias here - what if the target of a botnet, who's admin interface is hosted by CF - is based in a country where there is no reasonable ability to recourse to the US courts? Iran, for example?

It's admirable that you do not censor content in response to political pressure, but there IS a difference between protecting freedom of speech and protecting malware, and saying that censoring the malware is a slippery slope is at least partly disingenuous - any vaguely controversial decision can be described as a slippery slope to something else. Please at least consider making it easier for those of us who are trying to fight malware, botnets, etc, etc to get the original source of the content. I know this will involve some human judgement, and invetiably some mistakes and poor descions - but that would still in my view be far prefferable to what we have now. Thanks.

Agree, which is why we do take malware and phishing sites, which we can judge as per se harmful, offline. Read more here:

http://blog.cloudflare.com/thoughts-on-abuse

Malware and sites advertising so-called "booter" services are different discussions.

(Sorry I'm just responding to all this now, 15 hours later)

> Malware and sites advertising so-called "booter" services are different discussions.

There's an important distinction here. You refer to "sites advertising so-called "booter" services." However, with the kind of sites I speak of, "sites providing so-called "booter" services" would be a better description. They aren't just advertising it; enter a valid username and password, enter an IP, click the "attack" button and an attack is launched, all from that single site.

Malware, phishing, and booters have two things in common: they have far-reaching effects (that is, they affect other, unrelated/unwilling people) and they are not in any way good for the target of the effort. Malware is only good for the operator who benefits from the keylogger, showing ads, or whatever; phishing is only good for the operator who benefits from the stolen information; booters are only good for the booter operator (who profits from selling it) and for the user who paid for it to attack a target. Based on that, it's difficult for me to see the difference between the harmfulness of any of these.

In your post, the standard you applied to malware and phishing was "harmfulness" (in your opinion). I agree with that standard, and I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a single person who agrees that any of these three issues are not harmful. So, in your opinion, what makes booters less harmful than malware and phishing sites, which you are willing to take offline?

Censorship is a slippery slope, indeed. But I think it is generally accepted that _some_ basic level of what is effectively censorship, is a necessary evil for the health of the Internet. For example, malware and phishing sites, as you mentioned; spam; DDoS attacks. That's why laws exist in so many jurisdictions to prohibit all of these, and why the AUP of every single reputable ISP in existence prohibits them. This isn't uncharted territory, this isn't something new CloudFlare is just getting into - the industry standard (and legal standard) is to prohibit all of these.

I find it interesting he never responded to this. He was on the site the next day, so he must have seen your comment.

His refusal to remove booter sites from CloudFlare is completely indefensible. Any attempt on his part to suggest otherwise can only be interpreted as evidence of guilt. There is no possible arrangement of words which can make it okay.

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