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Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

Whoah, this is a really good article. It's not a pitch for a specific better kind of oven Myhrvold came up with (which is what I expected it to be, and the reason I didn't read it until just now), but a survey of all the problems with current oven technologies and what modern tech can do to solve them. If you haven't read the whole thing, do check it out.

What's interesting to me is that everybody and their cousins have done DIY water baths, and there are even people doing DIY rotary evaporators, but nobody does a DIY CVap. Is it that hard?

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Technologically it's not that hard (KFC has been doing it for nearly 50 years, remember). I think it's just a little messier. You're dealing with two independent heating/control circuits and on top of that you need to manage a cavity that's at 100% humidity. Most consumer ovens can't handle that much moisture for long before they start rusting from the inside out.

There's a little more CVap discussion here:

http://www.cookingissues.com/primers/sous-vide/part-ii-low-t...

I was the guy that used to write all the software for the CVap ovens at Winston, so here's my take... The basic idea is the pan of water is your food temperature and the air temperature is your food texture/browning. It really is incredibly simple technology, and it really is quite superior to the old way. I would LOVE to have that feature in a normal home oven. The same oven can be a proofing oven, baking oven, steamer and holding cabinet. You can cook a roast and it can safely be held for about 24 hours without affecting the food at all (medium-rare will stay that way no matter how long you keep it in the oven). Not to mention that is cooks faster and more efficiently. Also you can cook at lower temperatures safely, which is kind of big.

The two major difficulties are: 1) The pan of water is a pain to clean and keep full. All that moisture just builds up gunk. 2) The user needs to rethink how they cook. They need to think food temperature and texture, rather than cook X minutes at Y. It's simple to modify your recipes, but customers have always seemed quite resistant to change. I still say it is needed in every kitchen, however.

Whoah, cool. How did that job happen? Why'd you leave? Do you still work in food tech?

Basically, Louisville is a small town when it comes to Engineering. I had some contacts which eventually led to a job there. But the job got stale. Our platform was based on a National Semi COP8 (8-bit micro without even a multiply instruction). That can only be interesting for so long. So I went to GE and started designing 3-phase induction motors. Quite a change of pace.

Awesome! Nice to meet someone in similar work.

Do you recall if any major customers (like chains) were using the CVap for prep/cooking, or like KFC was everyone just using it as a holding cabinet?

It was a lot of holding cabinet stuff. That's easy to introduce into your workflow and doesn't really change the way you do things. Primarily a money saver by being able to hold things longer. I think Arby's experimented with it since they slow roast at a fairly low temperature. Cookong that way will more quickly get you out of the "unsafe" region where bacteria grows quickly. Restaurants menus have been optimized for the current way of doing things. There's not enough incentive to change that. Especially in franchises where you'd be forcing them to buy expensive new equipment and shake up the menu. (KFC is especially scared after the meas introducing the Chicken Little caused.) It's easier in fine dining and smaller chains where they have the ability to experiment. They also have more incentive to be different.

I've seen that same situation regarding chains that are trying to stay relevant with new items but trying to avoid the constant introduction of new equipment in the kitchens. When it works it works great, like you mentioned it can also go incredibly bad.

My eyes have also been opened to the politics between the corporate parent, the franchisees, and even how the vendors get involved (like Coke or Frito-Lay). It's crazy stuff.

I'd like to say DIY ovens are hard; don't even attempt it :) but if you are interested in really good pizza, pita, bagels, and ciabatta all you need is a conventional oven modded basically like this[0]. Also a baking stone is required. SV takes too long, is it worth it?

[0] http://www.instructables.com/id/Hack-a-Toaster-Oven-for-Refl...

SV meaning "sous vide"? Worth it? Very yes.

Sous-vide won't work for breads. The best bread is going to come from an oven that's using heavy convection current to crisp up the outside. A brick oven does this, as do the more modern convection units.

If you want to see what's new in convection cooking, check out the Turbo Chef Fire. This is a commercial piece of equipment, but could eventually be adapted for home use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkFrsUP9QUU

Oh, sorry, I missed that he was talking about bread. Making bread seems a little bit similar to cooking bricks. :)

Also similar to reflow soldering.

Try 1/2 inch sheet steel instead of a baking stone. More thermal mass, better conduction and more wear-resistant (won't crack from thermal stress). Cast iron is a cheaper alternative.

Hey that probably has less asbestos than my fibrament baking stone, and maybe it doesn't smell as bad when you heat it up the first time.

Hmmm. Never thought of that. If it's cool enough tonight I'll try an experiment with a cast iron skillet and a small boule.

I have the Solardom oven that he mentions towards the end, and they really are a step above standard ovens in terms of versatility. I have had mine for 10 years, and not only is the oven technology pretty good, but the user interface is genius in its simplicity. I think it's the only oven I've ever owned that I have discovered and used all the different modes that it provides, because after all, who really wants to spend their time reading an oven operating manual...

That said, Nathan pretty much hits on all of the criticisms that I do have of the oven. Pre-heating takes way too long, high-heat requires hacking the safety mechanism of the oven, and no rotisserie (although they do use the pulsed heat hack that Nathan mentions).

I'm a foodie, and my next oven will be another Solardom, which is as high praise as I can give, but I wish there was something even better.

No it isn't, but I would expect him to have patented anything he could get away with and have his shell companies lying in wait for anyone who builds an infringing oven.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100217/1853298215.shtml - and plenty more if you look further.

This comment has nothing to do with mine. It's just noise. I was talking about CVaps, and you're talking about... patent trolling? Myrvhold didn't invent CVaps.

Oh, you weren't talking about Nathan Mhyrvold and the oven? OK then.

FYI, patent trolls usually haven't invented the thing they hold a patent for.

"The" oven?

As in "the mousetrap". As in "the disingenuous reply". A class rather than an instance, but you knew that.

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