Is My Electric Bicycle Lame? | Hacker News Reader

Is My Electric Bicycle Lame?

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30 pointsmonkeygrinder56 comments

The bike shop employee's attitude sounds very familiar. If serious cyclists want more people to get on bikes, they need to put some effort into making cycling more welcoming to newbies.

I live in San Francisco, and about a month ago I decided to buy a bike, the first time I'd bought a bicycle. I know how to ride a bike, but I am in all other ways a noob -- I've never owned a bike with gears (the last time I had a bike I was 12), know nothing about road bikes vs. mountain bikes vs. hybrids, etc.. Surely, in a city as self-consciously eco-friendly as San Francisco, I could find a bike store full of earnest, well-meaning hippies to point me in the right direction for planet-saving happiness, preferably on a budget?

No such luck. I walked into store after store to be greeted with barely-disguised contempt as I explained I had no idea what I wanted, just "a bike to ride around on", which turned into sneers of disgust when I said that I wanted to spend less than $500 on it.

Even co-workers who bike were of little help. One described buying a bike for less than $500 as "like buying a netbook". I countered that a netbook was a great analogy, as I wasn't going to be commuting on the bike, just riding it every so often, the cycling of equivalent of "just checking my email".

Eventually I got my bike (at Valencia Cyclery) and I'm enjoying it very much, but it's easy to see how people can be put off. Any cycling is better than no cycling, and "bike people" need to get over themselves and be more welcoming to the new and clueless.

That's too bad you had a bad experience there. I've always found the Valencia Cyclery people to be very helpful and friendly. I, too, was clueless in the beginning, and they helped me get up to speed by letting me ride basically every bike in their store.

To clarify: Valencia Cyclery is where I had the least problems. It was all the other stores that sneered at me (especially Pedal Revolution, who looked at me like I was a space alien when I asked for bikes under $500).

I find even at VC it varies from employee to employee; some are super-friendly and helpful while others are a little stand-offish.

I've been biking everywhere for a couple of years on $250-$500 bikes, so I disagree with your coworker, especially for an occasional use bike.

Hm. I generally get away with spending about 30 GBP on second-hand bikes, or 90GBP on a new bike (some assembly required) to great effect.

I can't see the appeal of riding around in lycra and helmet, fantasizing about being a racer though. Bike is just an alternative form of getting from A to B, pleasant in mild weather, on relatively flat roads and over not to long distances.

Why would serious cyclists want more people to get on bikes?

For example because it makes traffic more cyclist friendly if there are more cyclists. And generally people want other people to use what they're using (e.g. programming languages, text editors).

> And generally people want other people to use what they're using (e.g. programming languages, text editors).

Well, I think in this case you can compare the cycling community (in some places) to the Ruby community. They want everyone to ride fixies (or whatever the trend du jour would be), and if you dare suggest that your needs are better satisfied by some other solution, they will tear you apart with great enthusiasm.

Well, a lot of cyclists say it's good for the environment (therefore more bikes = better). Others say it's healthy (and therefore everybody should do it).

Of course, they could just be dicks and say they don't care if other people start cycling. In which case, they don't get to wear helmet stickers touting their "zero emissions vehicle" or complain about SUV drivers.

Either they need to be more friendly about getting more people on bikes or stop sneering at people who don't have them. They can't have it both ways.

My previous bike cost 50 euros, the one before that was 25 euros. Second hand though.

I also live is SF. If you want a cheap bike, you must buy second-hand. My wife bought mine off a friend for $200 (discounted because of the friendship, but still: it happened.) A coworker of mine scored a bike for $40 after a conversation with someone that was riding a bike they didn't like. It's possible to find cheap bikes, you just have to be willing to buy something that may need some work.

The attitude of many cyclists in this city needs improvement, but there are lots of organizations in the city that do their best to help out new cyclists, like the Bicycle Coalition and the Bike Kitchen, and on Bike to Work Day you can find a lot of really helpful people.

How did you end up educating yourself? Are there any specific websites you went to for useful information?

Where does this cyclist-fascist 'I'm holier than thou because I have carbon rims' attitude come from, seems it's endemic.

I think it's a shame that you feel that way. The SF bike shops vary, but my experience with places like Valencia Cyclery and Mission Bikes has been the opposite.

And heck SF has the excellent bike kitchen (http://bikekitchen.org) which is probably the friendliest place for bike newbies on earth. You can get a working bike for $0 with a little time and effort.

I bought a $350 bike 5 weeks ago. Since then I've lost a wheel due to spoke breakage and have had one flat tire, shifting is missing even when tuned, rear brake is fading, etc. I think the problem with me is my mileage is so high (100 miles a week) and I can see why someone would recommend a $1000 bike.

but yeah, everything else is consistent with your experience. bikers are jerks.

With a not too outlandish set of assumptions, the environmental footprint of an electric cyclist is smaller than that of an acoustic cyclist. Unless you're some kind of raw-food vegan:

http://ebikes.ca/sustainability/Ebike_Energy.pdf

The potential hole in the reasoning is the assumption that a human-powered cyclist switching to electric would start eating less.

In either case the environmental footprint compared with driving is so miniscule that you're really splitting hairs.

I love, love that they decided to analyze the human in terms of being a really inefficient battery. Hopefully when the machines build the Matrix they will consult this as a reference.

At one point in my life I had grand plans build a flywheel into a four wheeled bicycle. I could replicate regenerative breaking, I could spin up the flywheel at stop lights, it was going to be great. I mentioned this idea to a civil engineer friend of mine, who pointed out that I could probably get better power density with a battery. When I realized I'd reinvented a heavier version of the electric bike I wasn't so excited about the project.

Well that all depends on how light the flywheel is and how fast it's spinning.

I'm sure a 1kg flywheel spinning at 20K RPM would hold plenty of power, and it's certainly not too much extra weight.

That aside, I still agree that it's impractical :-p

Try to take a corner on that particular bike and you will get a short and unpleasant lesson in angular momentum and the gyroscope effect...

Not if you keep it level enough, which should be feasible on a four-wheeler. I mean, the gyrobus shows that it's not a infeasible concept - they still let people ride it sometimes here in Antwerp, as a curiosity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus

> "Do you really feel like you need a motor to help you pedal?"

Not all environmentalists are ideologues, but many are (not to say that other points of view are better or worse in this regard). Much of the problem that I have with left-wing ideology is that people look at things as MORAL or RELIGIOUS issues instead of ENGINEERING issues.

It's like Clay Shirky said about online communities [ http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html ]: one of their purposes is the veneration of the religious viewpoint.

"Hey, I've got an electric bike!"

"That's not a REAL bike; it sucks; you suck."

"Yeah, but it uses 1% of the power of a car"

"That's not a REAL bike; it sucks; you suck."

"It's good for the environment"

"That's not a REAL bike; it sucks; you suck."

<sigh>

The reason that high school sucks [ http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html ] is because it's filled with human beings, who care about "religious" issues an in-group loyalty.

That's not a problem with left-wing ideology. It's a problem with ideology.

I didn't actually start to hate bicyclists and bicycling culture until I became one.

They are one of the most fundamentalist group of people when it comes to two wheeled bikes. I've met all kinds of tolerances but it seem to mostly lean towards "not".

Any kind of suggestion about violating the ordained formula for a bicycle is just inciting religious hatred. It usually goes like this:

Want to consider a shaft driven bicycle for easier mainteinence? THEY"RE STUPID AND EXPENSIVE! Internal hub gearing? THEY'RE STUPID AND EXPENSIVE! Electric motor? THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!

And if you're not wearing spandex and have the right gear, the right bike (or at least the wrong one), you get looked down on again. I hate it.

This is SO MUCH a US phenomenon, though. It's so weird to hear talk about bicycles like they're some kind of lifestyle choice, like they stand for something. Sad to hear that, in the face of all the opposition against bicycles and the poor infrastructure, there seems to be a bicycle culture which goes against casual use.

Which reminds me of this classic: http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/ ;)

I second that! I am an overweight guy, not your typical "Bay Area Fundamentalist Cyclist". I started biking to lose some weight, but mostly because I am truly concerned about the environment and I thought that would help.

The "looked down" is not even so much the issue. I actually got yelled at several times, intimidated, and actually ran over by other cyclists who thing they are Lance Armstrong or something. Close to the place where I lived (in Mountain View) there was a creek, and I was tired to hear other cyclists yelling "get off the way". And, you know, I am not really a slow rider and I really make sure to keep the left side clear. When I got ran over was some guy who had plenty of space to pass me by, but didn't want to wait to get back to the track and actually PUSHED me with his hands. I am dead serious.

Then I moved to China... Bicycles are TRULY ubiquitous here, and everyone uses it, from all ages and societal classes.

If the US wants to get serious about alternative forms of transportation, these elitists must need to change their attitude.

My brother is a real cycling enthusiast - so I've traveled with him a bit and met the cycling community all over. Your experience seems very typically west-coast-big-city.

Just be aware that this isn't the same everywhere. That being said, California seems to have a hipster culture that not even NYC can rival - and hipsters in general are not the most inclusive bunch.

I live in Portland, and bikes are huge here. The most common complaint I've heard about electric bicycles is that they enable new, relatively unskilled riders to wreak havoc in heavy bike-traffic situations. This mostly involves complaints of passing too close to other riders.

http://bikeportland.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2995

This really isn't a problem with electric bicycles themselves, but with rider education.

I will also say there is definitely a sense of smugness from some riders against electric bicycles, but I'd say there are at least as many people who support the concept and want to see more people out on bikes.

Regular bikers tend to be somewhat snobby both towards other bikers, and any other types of traffic they may encounter (walkers, rollerbladers, cars etc.) So the fact that some Portlander-bikers are being annoyed isn't saying much, and I doubt there's enough of them to be a problem.

I'm a biker and _I will never own a bike like that_, too proud I guess but... I completly support people who are using electric bikes. I bike for two reason : health and environment. If they are only in for the environment, it's more than OK to me.

I think it's more about distance and sweat than not caring about health. If you're in Austin (like the author and myself) you're not going to go more than two miles in a reasonable amount of time without sweating, especially if you're dealing with hills. For commuting, that shouldn't really be an issue, since any reasonable workplace should have some means of storing a bike and changing clothes. For unreasonable workplaces and situations where sweating is a dealbreaker (if you're going shopping for clothes and you're going to try things on, please don't bike far), an electric bike seems like a good idea.

I bike (or unicycle) to get from A to B.

When I lived in a small town, I used my bicycle as my main mode of transportation and I thought it was great, but I lived in a town that was fairly cool most of the year and I only had to be in business casual, which allowed button-up short sleeved and polo shirts.

I have to sympathize, if I had to show up in a suit, especially in a warmer place, I would not have taken a standard bicycle. I probably would have gone on to a car, so I think an electric bike is a good compromise.

I'm pretty sure the battery->electric motor conversion is a more efficient use of energy than the food->muscle->pedal conversion, so no, it's not lame.

Food is solar power except for transportation, so that isn't the appropriate comparison.

You really don't know how food is produced, do you? Try reading up a bit on the subject to see just how much energy is required to get a calorie of food energy to your mouth (quick hint: the most commonly used forms of plant-ready nitrogen fertilizer are almost completely derived from oil.)

Ok, I should've included more caveats. I meant that the calories you're consuming are solar power, though there's definitely other energy involved. The comparison is still invalid.

yeah it's lame. The human body is infinitely more efficient than battery technology we have.

You are basically a supercomputer, if you're lucky you get atleast 30,000 charge cycles over your lifetime, and the waste you generate is biodegradable.

According to wikipedia, human muscles are only about 20% efficient. Right there meatbags have lost to the electric bike before we even consider the efficiency of digestion, food preparation, and transportation.

(Pardon while I wave hands about electrical transmission line losses, battery energy return rates, and electrical motor efficiency. I'm fairly certain we can even be so silly as to burn food to power the previously coal fired electric plants and the battery/motor combination still wins, but it will be close in that circumstance.)

What about the dramatically increased weight of electric bicycles due to the battery? Over short ranges, the fact that humans need to exercise anyway should also become important; I would think twice about a 20-mile daily commute, but I commuted 4 miles each way along the Stevens Creek Trail during the summer I spent at Google and it was a blast. (Despite the increased physical activity, I think Google was net bad for my health because I wasn't able to resist the oh-so-delicious array of desserts.)

I am still somewhat new to the sport, but I consider myself a serious cyclist. The kind of people who wear spandex versus the kind of people who just want to commute are very different people, even if they're riding similar machines. I do look down on people who ride electric bikes a little bit, because personally, I feel like the extra exertion you're making on an acoustic bike is part of what makes riding a bike so enjoyable in the first place. I like riding because I know it's purely me that's making the bike go 20 mph, and I actually enjoy going up hills and feeling exhausted at the top.

It's like the difference between getting a netbook just to check your email and write documents, and building your own PC and installing Linux on it just because you can and it's fun. A lot of the latter look down on the former, and it's because the former have no idea what they're missing out on. It's not very nice, but it's understandable.

I live in Utah, and drive a scooter-style ebike to work. See (http://www.utahebikes.com) for an example. It's even one step further from a bike because you don't actually have to pedal to make it run.

Some would argue this is one step further down the chain of laziness. I contend that it opens up alternative transportation to a whole group of people who wouldn't otherwise consider it. It's not as "granola" as an old used bicycle that's already made up its carbon footprint, but it's a far cry better than driving.

Plus, the extra cargo space of the scooter style makes it a lot nicer for errands than a bicycle. I've ended up replacing 80% of my car trips with the ebike.

There's been similar reactions recently in the UK to the thought of supermarkets selling cheap bikes. The people commenting apparently had no ability to step outside themselves and consider the needs of others.

The uproar actually made me feel better in a way because I was glad to find out that such reactions are not confined to the world of computer technology. In IT I usually notice it in enthusiast reviews, were they basically state: if this product is not targeted directly at me, then it is an abomination.

Man, do I feel lucky when reading this article and your comments...

Hippies riding bikes? If you look carefully you might spot a few but since over 60% of people here in the netherland use their bike at least three times a week chances are you'll see almost every type of person riding a bike :)

Which reminds me of: http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/

this is only tangentially related to the article and i don't even know if this is possible:

i'd love to see an attachment of some sort that you can install onto a bike and can produce an output able to recharge laptops and cell phones. i couldn't find anything with this capability based on a quick search.

Do you mean a wheel-generator attachment for a manpower bike, or an attachment to borrow energy from an electric bike?

For a manpower bike, I think it would be terrifically underpowered or terrifically difficult. As mentioned in a link from Luc, http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/, even the little headlights you stick on and power with the tires make cycling _much_ harder and produce very little light.

Charging a laptop/cell off of that would be... a challenge. =P

Borrowing energy from the battery of an electric bike would be a different story, but not all that helpful. Potentially useful if you stop at a coffee shop or something on your commute, but other than that, I can't see what it would do for you.

manpower. i agree it would be tough, but if we have devices that allow you to recharge your cellphone with a device that uses walking as a power source (http://www.livescience.com/technology/080207-people-power.ht...), i think we can do something for a bike that could maybe produce a little more juice.

David has it right (http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html). You just can't generate that much power--his burst output is about enough to run a desktop computer.

I researched this a while back because of an ingenious idea to decouple power and pedalling speed by putting a pedalled generator, a supercap, and an electric motor on a bicycle frame. Sadly, it would've been about 2x as heavy as a normal electric bicycle, and 60% as efficient.

Just to clarify, this is just an interesting article I found. I'm not the owner of an Electric bike. I have an old fashioned normal road bike. London is about to roll out electric bikes throughout the capital

That depends if you're asking a garden-variety follower of the cyclic faith (no), or a radical cyclist (yes).

A lot less lame than a segway.

Yes, it's lame. The fallacy is clear:

I surely wasn’t going to drive a car to the alternative transit sessions

Whatever the motivation, the result was unambiguous--it's not like he was driving a Hummer H2 everywhere besides those sessions. There aren't many use cases where an electric bicycle is better than an acoustic bicycle, but a commute that's bikeable except for sweat production is one of them.

Upvoted for using acoustic bicycle as the opposite of electric bicycle. As to the article, the bike is lame if it doesn't do what he wants it to do otherwise get over what other people think.

Having a big hill as part of a commute and bad knees is a perfectly reasonable use case.

Downvoted that much, yet nobody even bothers to suggest that the quoted statement is not fallacious, nor that my conclusion is therefore faulty.

For shame.

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