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> In fact, it seemed like the entire Gamecube era can be defined by Nintendo trying something different and kinda being punished for it due to preconceived expectations. Things like FPS Metroid instead of 3rd person Metroid. Mario Sunshine instead of Mario 64 2. Mario Kart Double Dash instead of regular Mario Kart 64 2. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat instead of proper 2D Donkey Kong Country. And of course WindWaker.

Don't forget launching with a Luigi title rather than a Mario title.

And the funny thing is, most of those are great games: Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, and Luigi's Mansion are all quite good because they broke the usual formula. Trying something different is a risk; you might get something much better than formula by adding some variety, or you might get an utter flop. But I'll take that over something completely formulaic.

The funny part for me was how after I got into windwaker, I immediately thought it was my favorite zelda game lol.

Kinda glad to see the tide turn :) OoT was pretty epic too, but WW is more fun to play. Maybe I just like the whole sailing+pirates thing too much.

The long sea voyages could have been done better. But the game felt and played fantastic. I had more fun with it than with the next one. When Twilight Princess came out, I felt "omg finally, no more cell shading" but later on I realized that the gameplay was a step backwards from Wind Waker. Except for the incredibly long traveling times of WW.

I think Windwaker was ultimately hurt more because they rushed it out for a November/December release. Allegedly they had to cut two whole dungeons from the final game, so nobody was going to say 'this is the best Zelda ever!'

Nintendo adopt puzzling strategies at times, but I'd be wary of second guessing them. Everyone criticised the decision to stick with cartridges, but let's not forget that every other vendor except Sony that tried switching to CD-ROMs basically went out of business. Likewise, the Wii was slated when people saw the Gamecube-level specs with no HD, but then it was successful beyond anyone's wildest expectations.

I think I disagree with almost every point you made :P

- The two missing dungeons were a non-factor (I didn't even know about this until just right now). The game wasn't buggy, and it felt complete. It was as good as it was going to get.

- Sure, a bunch of console-vendors bit the dust with CD-ROM, but nobody blamed CD-ROMs. They failed because of price, or because of lack of recognition, lack of games, or whatever, but not because of CD-ROMs. That's not me talking with the benefit of hindsight. I remember being in that era. There was a consensus that optical media in general, and CD-ROMs specifically, were the future. They were cheaper, and could hold huge amounts of data and FMV clips (FMV was big!). Nintendo had their reasons to go with cartridges, but they weren't good reasons for customers and publishers.

>Likewise, the Wii was slated when people saw the Gamecube-level specs with no HD, but then it was successful beyond anyone's wildest expectations.

Yeah, it was a success and let Nintendo survive that console generation, but that success didn't do anything for the Wii U and the Wii kinda lost steam near the end (didn't most 3rd party publishers abandon it mid-way through it's life?). They got really really lucky with the Wii.

Didn't Windwaker only have 3 dungeons or something? The two abandoned dungeons would have kept it on par with OoT and MM, without them it seems like you're being shortchanged. Sure, the Twilight Princess style went down much better with the fanboys but you can't pay too much attention to the overly vocal minority that hated Celda.

Nobody thought to blame CD-ROMs as Sony made a big success of it, but sticking with cartridges let Nintendo differentiate themselves from everyone else and ensure they were the only genuine alternative to Playstation. In general Nintendo's business strategy can be described as: a) do something different b) never bet the house. The first ensures the potential for runaway hits like the Wii or DS, while the latter ensures they can always try again next generation.

Wind Waker has 5 main dungeons / temples - 7 if you include the fortress and final tower. It also has a 3 mini dungeons to get a few of the items [magic arrows / iron boots].

> - The two missing dungeons were a non-factor (I didn't even know about this until just right now).

I enjoyed Wind Waker, but I always felt like something was missing. It felt odd that there were only two temples where the previous games had more. I also didn't know about the missing dungeons. And as another poster mentioned, apparently the dungeons were complete, but 'too hard' so they were cut. I almost wish they would have included them somehow even if it was a 'hard more' or some sort of special edition of the game.

> that success didn't do anything for the Wii U

To be fair, the Wii U didn't do much to cash in on the Wii's success other than keep the name, and confuse people as to whether or not it was a new console.

The dungeon situation is worse than that. I actually was very unhappy with Windwaker at the time because it was too easy. I loved the sword fights against the knights towards the end, but there were only a handful of those. So I already was upset about that. However, than I read that Miyamoto had said that the two dungeons had already been completed, but they were too hard and the game got too long and he wanted everyone to finish the game. I can not overstate how I upset I was when I read that.

Yeah, this is my biggest problem with Wind Waker, and why it's not the best Zelda - it's just too easy. Adding a couple of tough dungeons would've made it much closer to OoT's difficulty. We shouldn't be aiming for games that everyone can complete - and I say this as someone who doesn't complete a lot of games.

>Nintendo is actually pretty clueless with market trends in general.

The whole Wii brand is itself perhaps the best example of it. I can not think of a more terrible name - or rather I couldn't until they released Wii U. Any success these consoles have is in spite of the branding, not because of it. (Which might go to show that branding is not terribly important after all, since the Wii was obviously very successful, and Wii U apparently did well at E3 this year.)

> More recently, a Nintendo exec couldn't understand why people would want to watch streamed games[2]

Gahh.. that link made me seriously question Nintendo's management - are they that disconnected from their customers? just thinking one inch ahead and asking yourself "what's fun about watching [insert your country's favourite sport]" would immediately answer that question whether this is something people want.

>are they that disconnected from their customers?

Kinda. It's Nintendo being Nintendo. Miss the boat on some trend, and rather than work towards fixing it, deny the trend.

Yep, I remember trying to defend both Wind Waker and the Metroid Prime series to my friends but they wouldn't play them. I also remember seeing those early screenshots of that Zelda game that was never made, and looking back it's great that they went with the cel shading style. Lots of people thought it looked 'kiddie', but I've always thought it was beautiful, and it's aged so well.