Comment by mzarate06 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mzarate06 | Hacker News Reader

Dell does this with their monitors [1], first by shipping certain models with IPS panels, then with cheaper PVA panels after good reviews are published.

That bit me w/their 2007wfp, which was a great monitor mostly for 1 reason: it was IPS at a great price point. Overwhelmingly positive reviews convinced me to purchase 2 of them.

Then buyers started noticing picture quality issues not described in previous positive reviews. After some research, it was found Dell had silently started shipping the 2007wfp with cheaper PVA panels, not IPS. After noticing similar issues with the 2 I purchased, I eventually confirmed they were PVA monitors. I was fairly upset.

There's a good thread on Hard Forum about all of this here.[2]

And despite very frustrated customers, Dell never acknowledged any problem. In fact, a Dell rep can be quoted: "... a 2007WFP is a 2007WFP ... It does not matter what panel is installed." [3]

I stopped buying Dell products after this experience.

[1] http://en.community.dell.com/f/3529/t/18107050.aspx

[2] http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1111100

[3] http://en.community.dell.com/f/3529/t/18286693.aspx

> In fact, a Dell rep can be quoted: "... a 2007WFP is a 2007WFP ... It does not matter what panel is installed."

Did they ever list the panel type? If they did, isn't this false advertising?

If they never promised the panel type/view angle/color accuracy in the first place, then I don't think there's anything wrong with what the rep said. After all, not every one cares what type of panel is used as much as physical dimension/resolution. Nevertheless, it is very surprising to me that they didn't specify what panel is used.

I recall the panel type being listed somewhere in the specs. However, I can't find an advertised panel type for the 2007wfp today. This is the only Dell web page I found that still lists that monitor, but panel type isn't cited [1].

But Dell does advertise panel types, especially for their Ultra Sharp monitors (which the 2007wfp is one of). E.g. click into any Ultra Sharp monitor here [2], then view the Tech Specs tab and look for panel type.

> After all, not every one cares what type of panel is used

Agreed, although I'd argue those are likely people that don't seek out higher priced monitors with picture quality only IPS can deliver. It's worth making clear that the difference between IPS and any other panel type is noticeable, in both display quality and (especially) price. In a lot of cases I know of someone owning an IPS monitor, it was an intentional purchase having at least something to do with that detail.

[1] http://www.dfsdirectsales.com/StoreCatalog/ctl641/cp57138/si...

[2] http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/category.aspx?c=us&catego...

Would you be ok if a car manufacturer put a smaller motor in a car you bought because car reviews said "it had great ability to get up and hold freeway speeds"? Is it ok as long as they didn't sell based on horse power? Or maybe it's handling: reviewers say it corners great, but then you find the suspension has been massively downgraded. How do you even advertise a spec'ed suspension?

It's dirty business if you are giving reviewers something better than the people who are reading the reviews. People don't buy computer parts (or cars) based on the advertised spec sheet, they buy them based on what they can really do.

> Would you be ok if a car manufacturer put a smaller motor in a car you bought because car reviews said "it had great ability to get up and hold freeway speeds"? Is it ok as long as they didn't sell based on horse power?

If they lie about the engine performance, then its wrong. If they change the components underlying (admittedly weasel-wording-marketing-speak) marketing phrasing, then it's not as clearly wrong.

>Or maybe it's handling: reviewers say it corners great, but then you find the suspension has been massively downgraded. How do you even advertise a spec'ed suspension? This is why specifications, and often component information, exists.

I'm not saying that these companies are in the right, or that this doesn't happen. It clearly does, in some cases. In other cases, it's probably due to the fact that the manufacturing supply chain is more complex than most people understand.

In all cases, it's not a great idea to paint with a broad brush. Especially when creating somewhat comparable analogies than are also pretty general.

> dirty business if you are giving reviewers something better than the people who are reading the reviews

It isn't clear if this is what's happening behind. I think the Dell rep was being very frank about it, that Dell did not intend to supply an IPS monitor and reserve the right to be flexible regarding what panel to use. If IPS panel really matters, then one may want to choose a monitor that clearly says so in the spec. In fact, if you look at the link [3] in the root comment, some people clearly understood that it was possible to receive the cheaper, inferior panel, yet would like to participate in the gamble.

[3] http://en.community.dell.com/f/3529/t/18286693.aspx

The challenge of engineering physical goods is that, unlike software, many things vary. That is why in electronics industry, manufacturers publish detailed datasheet that lists nearly all the parameter one will care about, including all the tolerances. It is quite uncommon for the customer to actually test each of those parameter to ensure they are within spec, but it is a contractual constraint placed on the supplier in case things go wrong. I think the same idea can be applied to your car example. Ideally, even if most customers don't read the spec sheet, the manufacturer should still provide it. Customer can have peace of mind by knowing that his/her experience will not be too far off from the review others published online. If what you care about is absent from the spec, think twice before buying the product.

On the one hand, that's awful.

On the other hand, if you only discovered that you got the inferior version well after you purchased, did it really matter for you?

Good question, but indeed it did, for a couple reasons.

For one, I only purchase IPS monitors. Even before I found out about everything, I had already noticed slightly less picture quality compared to other IPS monitors I used; lesser viewing angle, colors shifting, etc. Part of what caught my attention regarding the customer complaints I found is their symptoms were apparent on the 2 I purchased. So despite not knowing I had a PVA panel, there was a noticeable quality difference that mattered. The customer complaints supplemented, rather than created, my initial concerns.

Second, I was cheated. The monitor they delivered was inferior to the one advertised (at the time, the 2007wfp was advertised with an IPS panel, a detail later removed). That's lying. What's worse, is a customer support department trying to sweep it under the rug.

I'm sorry you had to learn this way, but you have now learned one of the lessons that everyone who has anything to do with computers has (or ought) to learn: don't trust Dell, don't buy Dell, don't use Dell.

Their business level support is excellent though - for SMBs without in-house tech I will recommend them every time. On-site, fast and knowledgable hardware swapout is a lifesaver.

If you noticed it independently, that's clear enough. And if they advertised it but didn't deliver, that supports it too.

I'm interesting in cases where someone really wants X, unknowingly gets not-X, and then is perfectly happy with not-X until they discover the difference through other means. It happens, but doesn't sound like it happened here.

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