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Comment by nkurz | Hacker News Reader

I'd be interested in hearing non-US perspectives on this. Is it acceptable elsewhere to leave your small child alone in the car for 5 minutes while you get something from a store? Would you fear for the child's safety, of legal action, or neither? Is the US leading the way criminalizing parents who do such things, or are there other countries that have been doing this for years?

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Grew up in France in the 90s, in a small upper middle class town. My mother definitely left me alone in the car while she was running errands many, many times (which I liked because it meant I could just read my book, which is all I cared about as a kid). My parents also let me walk back and forth to the library (half a mile or so away) on my own fairly early on.

When we lived in the US for 2 years (pre 9/11), my parents definitely experienced a few police-state-related cultural shocks.

One time, a kid started hitting me in the school bus. It turned out that the kid lived in the same apartment complex as we did. That evening, my dad saw him playing outside, went up to him, and gave him a few stern words. A few hours later, his mother had called the police, and my dad ended up spending a few hours at the local police station.

We still lived in the US for another year or so after that, but nowadays my parents heavily dislike this country, and tend to avoid visiting me as much they can. FTR I don't see myself staying in the US when I start having kids.

One of your stated reasons for leaving the US when you have kids is that the US is hostile to adults assaulting children? Because that's the circumstance you described with your father and the kid from school.

Um, what?

scolding != assaulting, no?

But of course it might have been better if the kids’ parents took up the matter between them.

I chose my words carefully. When an adult confronts a child and terrifies them verbally, that is assault. That's not my opinion; that's the law. Because it is so easy for an adult to create a credible fear of violence in a child, it is very poor judgement for adults to directly confront children.

And the fact you see assault, and a law teaches you that it is so, instead of just scolding, is a cultural bias (sort of) and a point in favor of not living in US - or similar countries - for anyone born and grown up where these deceptive concepts are absent and hopefully not carved in a law.

Once common sense would have been enough: do you scolded my child? Why? What's happened? ... Ha, ok, my son did something wrong... and so on...

Usually it's not that hard.

Instead, a society rambling towards paranoia and driven by fear (especially this), makes a citizen feel the urge to "look at" a greater power, the Great Protector, to "protect" him/her even from an unexistant menace - or to seek revenge.

In the story we are commenting, the first thing I have noticed and blamed was the following: the mother surrenders to the request of the son who wants to go with her to the store. There, she makes the first mistake: the son had to stay at home with the grandma.

`tptacek, I'm not sure you'll ever see this, but I'll reply to your point anyways:

As `shintakezou pointed out, this is very much a cultural matter here. France (where my parents and I are from) tends to subscribe more to the "it takes a village to raise a child" mentality. Correcting the behavior of someone else's child at the park, supermarket, in the bus, etc. if they are out of the parent's sight is perfectly acceptable in French culture, and as a kid it happened to me many times, without traumatizing me (even when it was a scary old man yelling at me).

It is not perceived as assault, and it is certainly not "terrifying them verbally" (I find that phrasing a little bit excessive though, and am surprised that you extracted that from my "a few stern words").

In retrospect, the one thing my father did wrong was not considering that he was living in a different culture, and that something that seemed normal to him might be scandalous in the US. But that only makes my wish to leave the US when I have children even more valid in my eyes: I'd hate to find myself in those sort of cultural misunderstandings that can very easily escalate juridically.

I do find the US's approach to parenting very poor: France's approach to parenting is that kids are human beings in construction, and that they do not inherently know what is right or wrong, good or bad - and it is up to adults (parents or not) to let them know (that doesn't mean that their feelings or interests are invalid because they are "incomplete": it just means that they are lacking the knowledge of social mores, conventions, mental tools, etc. required to be productive citizens). The US's approach to parenting falls more in line with the belief that children are just "little adults" and that one should respect their wishes and desires no matter what, which I find preposterous.

Relevant German case law assumes that children are NOT under constant, uninterrupted supervision. Children being able to do things at least somewhat independently is considered important for developing self-reliance [1] and can override the parents' legal duty to supervise them; barring unusual circumstances, watching your child constantly is considered undesirable for the child's development. For example, it is considered more important for six year olds to walk to school on their own than for parents to provide supervision during that time (barring exceptional circumstances, such as a disability).

Checking on your four-year old son every 15-30 minutes is generally sufficient (modulo the circumstances and the child's maturity).

[1] Which is not to say that helicopter parenting isn't on the rise in Germany, too. The difference is that the police and teachers ask that parents NOT drive their children to school or pick them up afterwards, and some parents do it anyway.

I'm from Australia, have lived in the US, Ecuador, Argentina and now Canada. My sister lives in the UK.

I've never seen anywhere else in the world that takes these issues as seriously (and insanely) as the US.

In Australia it's extremely common to see young kids walking to school without an adult, playing in the park after school, etc. etc. Many young kids will walk to the corner shop to buy candy or whatever without supervision. Adults think nothing of this, it's perfectly normal. It's unthinkable someone would call the Police for this.

EDIT: I should add, however, that it's highly illegal to leave a child in a car, due to the extreme heat. I've never seen it, but I expect people would call the Police or just break into a car if they saw this happening. It's taken so seriously, the punishment is actually the same for leaving an animal in the car as it is for leaving a child in the car.

> I'd be interested in hearing non-US perspectives on this.

Finland here. Some people would leave a child in a car when they conduct a short errand, and some people would not, and the latter might frown upon the former. But the law enforcement would never ever get involved. That Salon article is just absurd. A whole new level of American weirdness.

(Then again, we rarely have weather as hot as the more southern countries.)

I don't exactly mean to question this, but in Finland is it common for the inside of cars to reach 40-50C within an hour during the summer?

During the hottest days of the summer (it very rarely goes above 28C or so - average maximum temperature is around 22C during the hottest summer months in southern Finland), yes, but not that often.

Less than an hour, I'd say. A warm summer day can easily be 25-30C, typically 20-25C. That's enough to go to 50C in an hour, windows closed, even on a half-cloudy day.

What happened in the article was just plain crazy. I'm from Finland and being five minutes somewhere outside the car -- nobody would blink an eye.

But things would also escalate gradually, depending on the situation. People would gather and start looking at the clock, seeing how the baby is doing and how long he's been there.

I'm sure there are laws you eventually do break if you leave your baby in the car for a long period of time (half an hour and up?), or in a hot parking lot and windows too closed.

Somebody would call the authorities and the police/firemen would break the window and save the baby and stay waiting for the parent: this would certainly warrant at least hectic reporting. The social workers would probably be notified and there would be a couple of meetings to figure out what's the deal.

But somebody being away for a few minutes... No way it would ever be a criminal case or brought to the judge or courts. While Finland does love rules and regulations more than sanefully necessary, you still have to mess up pretty bad to actually get charged for anything.

When I got to the bit about being arrested I was completely baffled... there's a law against this? I'm from the UK and as a child was left in the car for short periods, which is almost certainly commonplace.

I'm simply stunned that parents can be prosecuted for this. Another wtf America moment.

Actually, as the article explained there is NOT a law against leaving your kids in the car. Such a law was proposed and the legislature refused to pass it.

Instead, the prosecutor decided to charge her with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" which is a broad catch-all category for doing things that might harm a child. She was not found guilty of this crime either. Instead, her lawyer advised her to agree to punishment for the crime because if it went to trial there was a CHANCE that she would lose custody of her children.

The problem here is not in the law nor in the outcome of a court case. The problem lies in the structure of the legal system. Prosecutors wield enormous power by virtue of their ability to decide whom to charge and for what. The penalties for losing are so great that nearly all (around 95%) cases are settled rather than contested before a judge or jury.

There's no specific law against it in the majority of US states (http://www.kidsandcars.org/state-laws.html) The laws against leaving a child alone in a car are stricter than leaving them home alone (http://www.imom.com/parenting/tikes/parenting/safety/home-al...) because children dying of heat stroke in cars has made headlines in the past 20 years.

Many laws in the US are purposely vague and up to the interpretation of the police. The mother was charged with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Contributing+t...), which can be used against anyone that does something that might possibly result in a child being adversely affected in some way.

The unfortunate part of life in the US is that the average person breaks a few dozen laws every day, and it's really important not to upset the police in some way that they'll take notice of you and start charging you with crimes.

I'm from the UK and was born in 1990. I remember my parents leaving me in the car when I was younger, in all sorts of weather. Rain, snow, sun, whatever. I never really cared because they'd leave the radio on and I could play with whatever I'd taken with me. Nothing bad ever happened to me when they left me in the car

I don't see any issue with people leaving their kids in the car, it just requires a little common sense.

Also, comparing events where someone forgot their kid was in the car and leaving them all day to events where the parents consciously leave their kids and are aware of the conditions they've left them in (especially if they actually do something to help ensure the comfort of the child, like cracking the window) it's completely wrong. One is neglect, one is giving your kids a little freedom.

On a slight tangent: Baby sitting.

Some people in the UK take an extreme view on age of baby sitters. See this BBC article (in my parenting SE answer) about a woman leaving her 14 year old son in charge of a 3 year old boy for 30 minutes and the trouble that caused. (She should not have accepted the caution. I am surprised that's what the solicitor suggested, and I'm not sure she actually got a solicitor.)

http://parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/12599/what-is-c...

I find this pretty crazy. Going with a really contrived example, using the same logic, we could make it illegal to step next to your children because you could potentially break their skull with your elbow. Way too many ifs.

However, the goal itself, namely protecting children is noble. I guess hitting the sweet spot between being neglective and overly protective is hard. Such is the nature of most social issues.

In the Netherlands I would not expect any legal consequences or police involvement over leaving a kid in a car in the way described in the article (e.g. window open and only for a few minutes).

Second that, I can hardly believe this story is for real. When I grew up my parents left me (and my brother and sister) alone in the car all the time. Never for more than a few minutes obviously, but otherwise it was perfectly normal. They also let us cycle to school, play outside without being monitored all the time, roam around the woods, whatever. It was the same with all my friends. Surprisingly, everyone turned out just fine, and I've never heard of a single (near) fatal incident caused by this kind of negligence around me. I think I vaguely remember a baby died in a car in The Netherlands a few years ago though. You have to wonder what kind of parenting leads to forgetting you left your baby in the car though, and how long it would take for some other serious incident to occur if you're so absent minded.

That said, anyone has a right to disagree whether leaving your kid in the car when you have to stop at the store is acceptable, but prosecuting a parent for it is downright insane.

Bolivia here - I've NEVER in my 14 years living here in two different departments (states) seen a child left alone in a car. It's just unheard of. And we don't even get that much heat or cold either.

The risk is someone can break your window and steal your kid. It's just something that's never done. It would be akin to leaving your child on the street corner while you go up to your apartment to grab the purse you forgot.

I commuted by public transportation for about 5~ miles each day before and after school from the age of 9 (in Ukraine). From 11 on I commuted about 5~ miles each way to school in New York City.

At 8, I would often walk for miles in the wilderness when out camping, or go swimming in a river without serious adult supervision.

In the UK things have changed and so parents need to be careful. Various high profile cases have resulted in changes to both social services and police processing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Victoria_Climbi%C3%A9...

http://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2013/nov/11/b...

Does that result in "over reactions" - depends on your point of view.

As a German and father of a 22 month old child, I can't understand how unbelievable dumb this story is. I couldn't even finish reading it, because all this stuff is so cringeworthy.

While I understand that bad things can happen if you leave a child for a long time alone in a car, I can't understand the bystander was calling the police but couldn't open his mouth to actually say anything to the mom. And how come somebody is criminalized when there was no victim at all?

Also, while I understand children loves their electronics, please try to read a book to your kids once in a while.

Yes, I would love to hear about this too. I once left my son in the car for literally 2 mins while he was sleeping to buy a soda in a gas station. I am in the US.

its natural selection

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