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Comment by imgabe | Hacker News Reader

I feel like there's a lot missing by saying Leo "for whatever reason" does not want a bank account. What reason? Surely he has one. Could they not ask him what his reason is?

They give a bunch of justification about humans being creatures of habit. Nonsense. I'm sure Leo has some notions about everything a bank account is going to entail, and it's intimidating, but I don't see why it couldn't be overcome and this article does nothing to explain that. If Patrick can teach him to code, he could teach him the logistics of setting up a bank account, finding an apartment, etc. etc.

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For people without stable incomes or a large starting balance to serve as a buffer, bank accounts can be incredibly expensive, and confusing.

If you can easily maintain a few thousand dollars in positive balance, the weird rules around NSF and overdraft fees never really impact you. If you are living paycheck to paycheck, however, a single overdraft can wipe you out.

Here's a few articles that look at why low income individuals may choose to avoid banks:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2013/10/the-h...

http://www.publicbooks.org/nonfiction/ritecheck-12

He probably has plenty of unpaid fines from the police too, as every homeless person is typically hounded with loitering and other petty fines that a collection agency would grab from his account.

It's not the first time I stumble upon a mention of a high barrier to entry into becoming a bank customer for poor people.

In Africa, technology seems to be solving this problem with mobile money, see e.g. very successful M-Pesa[1].

Perhaps this is a solution the American poor could benefit from, too.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa

I find the whole 'overdraft' issue from US banks puzzling.

Brazilian banks usually have an overdraft limit. That is subject to interest, based on the time the account was negative. Some banks even give you a few days to sort it out before charging interest. Once the limit is exceeded, all operations are simply denied, be that from a ATM, a debit card, automatic bill payments, etc.

Yes, the interest rates are ridiculous, but they only matter if you spend a month or more with a negative balance.

Now, bounced checks are another story and are much more similar to how US overdraft works. Which is why checks are very rarely seen nowadays.

Nonsense, he can get a prepaid card that comes with a bank account with no fees, and even a full fledged account - many banks (Capital One and Fifth Third for sure) offer accounts with no overdraft and no monthly fees.

You ignore the whole part about joining the system. Grand has only been homeless for three years, so I'm sure he vividly remembers the struggle of maintaining a "normal" life—the daily struggle of making enough to pay for food and housing. It's not easy. In a city like New York, it's even harder. These are the chains that bind the non-homeless. We're basically running on a mouse wheel till we die.

It seems to me that having a bank account is barely "joining the system". We're not talking about having a house, paying taxes or working a regular job. We're just talking about having a bank card that can get money at the ATM. He doesn't even need to put money back in the bank account.

The story looks very suspicious / incomplete because of that. But then again, I'm not in his shoes. Maybe I'd understand if I was.

You need to imagine the personal torment that occurs when a person becomes homeless. It is not a quick process. It takes time, perhaps years of struggle just on the brink before a series of setbacks collapses the person's shallow safety net. During this time, a person will be a shamed, emotional wreak, whose every waking moment is a panic. Now, imagine being in this situation. Not just casually. Really imagine the loss of support from everyone you know, including your family. Now, that prior non-homeless life is a memory of struggle and failure. You can get by here on the streets. You're alive, on the streets, and that is an incredible success in itself. Would you want to return to that non-homeless life that you failed?

> Would you want to return to that non-homeless life that you failed?

You're eating burgers from restaurants from "that life", you're sleeping on a park bench from "that life", you're wearing used tshirts from "that life", you're watching tv at the shelter and the news are about the politics from "that life", you're getting napkins from a shopping mall from "that life" ...

This is why I don't get the bank account thing. It's definitely one foot in "that life", but so are a ton of other things in a homeless person's life (as I picture it).

Have you gotten a bank account without a state issued photo id, a SSN, and a mailing address?

Have you gotten a photo id without a birth certificate?

I have not, but that doesn't seem to be the point of the article, unfortunately.

The article says that this might be complicated because you might need an address, but then it goes on about how it is some kind of mental state of disconnection that prevents this guy from someone realizing the value of the $10k in the bank.

Oh, it's joining the system. It's having your financial activity monitored by the IRS (if just by proxy); the mere act of depositing the $10,000 will be reported thereto and documented for closer inspection (as in "how did a homeless guy suddenly come by a $10,000 deposit?") and require tax reporting (anything over $5,000 gets scrutinized for "drug violations"), which in turn will lead to documented addressing of quarterly payments (may be $0, but prove why). It's having your money held by people you don't trust behind an impersonal machine accessible only by a magic plastic card (which, under the circumstances, is almost as risky to have as the whole amount on hand in cash). Having the card, it's hard to not get sucked into using the card instead of cash (how many here experienced the abrupt realization we haven't carried cash for _months_?), leading to further data-mining by the system; not having instant/quick access to bank software, becomes harder to keep track of how much money one actually has on hand - risking expensive overdraws, which fire all kinds of additional attention from the system. You likely can't open an account without a fixed address (where to send official notices?); finding a sympathetic soul to provide one, now you're chained to that person, each at risk of consequences of the other doing something suspect. Who knows what other legal obligations he faces - the moment he opens the account, someone else may have immediate notification & right to seize the funds (tax delinquency, child support, etc). Further issues abound.

Easier just to have cash. Except that someplace like App Store isn't going to mail you an envelope of cash, they'll want a bank account to deposit in ... and now Leo is dealing with someone else holding his $10,000 and won't give it to him; that alone is enough to crush any faith in the system.

> Who knows what other legal obligations he faces - the moment he opens the account, someone else may have immediate notification & right to seize the funds (tax delinquency, child support, etc).

Yes, and I would have liked to read about this instead of reading about some vague uneasiness concerning banks that this poor guy developed by being homeless for so long.

Then it would turn into a story about how the System is giving no chances to a man who deserves a chance, about the "entry fee" to get back into the System, instead of it being about him feeling awkward about what it would mean to open up a bank account like a non-homeless person.

The whole article reads as though McConlogue was the sole source. There's one quote from Grand, about how he "actually likes to code", but his voice is noticeably absent from a piece that is almost entirely about homelessness – an experience that Grand is actually living and probably qualified to comment on. Instead, the article is just the author's speculation about his motivations. Weird.

Just a thought - do you need a permanent residence to have a bank account?

Generally yes. Some Credit Unions may be willing to open an account without the same level of documentation, but opening a bank account can be a real hassle.

P.O. Box should do it... cost someplace between $30-$75 a year for a small sized one.

Leo could stay "homeless" if he chooses, but should at least have the comfort of knowing he has a hot meal if he chooses.

The first bank application I checked requires a "residence or street address" and specifically forbids PO boxes. You also need to have current, government-issued ID, which also requires proof of residence.

It's simply not easy at all to participate in the modern economy if you are a transient or anyone else without a permanent address.

A while back, I had a mailbox at one of those Mailboxes etc. businesses, and I was able to have all sorts of things that don't allow PO boxes sent to it, since it looks like an apartment address. Worth a try for anybody in that situation.

Using such an address as your "permanent residence" could very well constitute fraud. You certainly don't live in a Mailbox store. Just because you can receive mail there, doesn't mean it's your address.

Know your customer requires a documented place of residence. These regs apply to all types of banks and credit unions.

I went through this hell. to get the PO box you need a residential address, you need ID with an address. I moved to a new state and was temporarily without residence or local ID, and as an experiment I tried to see how much I could accomplish without giving up an address and/or phone. It's impossible, or very nearly so.

I did find options though. One thing that might work is, find a Catholic church. Some of them will let you have your mail sent there for you if you're homeless. It didn't work for me because I knew I would be taking advantage of a good will service for people who are actually unprivileged.

If you haven't met someone who does something "for no reason" then you haven't met enough people yet.

In a strictly cause-effect sense, of course he has a reason for not wanting a bank account. That is a sentiment and some finite set of causes resulted in him feeling that way. But "for no/whatever reason" is not a philosophical statement, it's just shorthand for "for reasons he/she doesn't want to disclose" or "for reasons he/she isn't even aware of."

If a thousand tiny but unknown (to the reader) experiences have given Mr. Grand a deep emotional aversion to financial institutions, "for whatever reason" is about the best you can do as a description.

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