Terry Davis Uses This | Hacker News Reader

Terry Davis Uses This

terry.davis.usesthis.com

169 pointskmf63 comments

I have a lot of respect for Terry and it's nice to see him included alongside other developers. He's not the most likeable guy, but I doubt he's happy about that either.

He writes software to be beautiful. He can take pride in his work because his intentions are absolutely pure. When I program, I take shortcuts to ship as quickly as possible, and then I throw some ads on the final product to make money. I am a sellout, but Terry is not, and I envy him for that.

I especially like his HolyC language. It is simple, elegant, and comfortably familiar:

http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Doc/HolyC.html

No kidding. When one looks at everything he's wrote from scratch thus far, it is more than very impressive. If not for the skills, at least for the dedication. I get bored with projects 1/10th of the size.

Programmers don't realize how much they lose by constantly chasing the latest language, the latest frameworks, the latest new abstractions of software development that require so much past work to be thrown away. Terry's volume of output is available to anyone that's willing to just whittle away at one thing, in small pieces, for more than a few years.

(I'm not diminishing Terry's volume of work here, but encouraging other programmers to consider adopting a nice, slow side project.)

When we speak of TempleOS, and you mention "He can take pride in", I am reminded of this wonderful thread at mefi from 2012:

Terry:

"The flight simulator reduces how far you can see into the distance and how wide the display is. It's nothing to be proud of, except, it show the potential for absolute control over the other cores from within a game."

Commenter, in response:

"bro i think you can be proud of the flight simulator you wrote for the operating system you also wrote"

It made my day to see him on "usesthis".

That's always been my favorite response to him, as well. It made me tear up a bit reading it.

Here's the thread, for anyone interested: http://www.metafilter.com/119424/An-Operating-System-for-Son...

thanks for the link, that was a great read.

Since TempleOSV207 is shadowbanned here's his response in this thread:

> Yeah, I did. Now, I use Linux. Normally stuff like this launched me into an existential crisis. "Oh, God, the stress! Why God!? My world has a MAJOR thing to worry about -- misleading people maybe or something like that." I'm not quite as much a coward. I think I had good reason. Cowardess is not a virtue. God loved King David. Damn, I look awful. Oh well. I've become a freak hermit-- don't know how to smile, anymore.

> You poor people don't know God. -----

> You poor people don't know God.

This is a blaming statement and is misleading in and of itself. How can you possibly know what I know or what I don't know?

Don't worry about it. He is schizophrenic and believes God talks directly to him. If you had this problem, you probably wouldn't want to take medication for it. He thinks he has been chosen. It really isn't under his control.

Thank you for giving the statement some context rather than just down voting.

I had an uncle with schizophrenia (and a father with much less severe symptoms). You are right that you wouldn't want to take medication for it. To the schizophrenic mind, the benefits of schizophrenia far outweigh the costs -- and besides, you can't really trust anybody else to be either competent enough to medicate you, or to have your best interests in mind when medicating.

This is my favorite Terry Davis quote (from his website):

----10/02/13 02:34:50----

I used to drink when I was young. I would wake-up and think about my shameful behavior and be stoic, I guess. Recently, I've been fighting hard to break-out of my prison. Ten years? Insanity.

God is perfectly just. Sadly, it's not like I've suffered, exactly. When you get out of control and call people "niggers", that can't be good. God talks. I'm not exactly believed. Everybody is cruel and give no clue what they make of me.

God is perfectly just. The countless generations before me? It appears that I get my own little principality of which I sometimes seem supreme.

I always die a little inside reading this guy's stuff because it's so easy to see how brilliant he is, and how much schizophrenia is affecting his talent. The worst part is that even he wants to "break out of [his] prison," and it's heartbreaking to see when somebody can't.

I've been following Davis' work for around 5 years now. What he has been able to write, and the proficiency with which he writes it, has in my opinion surpassed all the programmers whose Ruby/Haskell/Clojure dreck always appears on the HN frontpage.

Do you know what he does for a living? Ticketmaster is mentioned here and there but always in the past, it seems.

He'd be an incredible system hacker, if managed appropriately... but it's the sort of bet only great souls could make.

Well, no. I'm not that close. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a job; one of his pages mentioned he only lives on disability.

He does nothing for a living, and it has been that way for a while.

Odd coincidence that I was just watching a video on TempleOS today. I had heard about Terry Davis and TempleOS previously and his God-worshipping operating system - but had never seen it in action.

This video gives you a glimpse into what he is like and what he has achieved on his quest to build the operating system for God: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EViG0Q4lTeA

Very, very bizarre yet mildly interesting. I was surprised to read he only ever runs it in VMWare - I thought perhaps he was just running it on a very specific set of hardware.

> I am aware of a 70 core Knights Landing Intel CPU coming-out. That might be nice.

It seems that no matter who the programmer is, some constants remain: we like big numbers.

Preferably power of 2. Get rid of 6 of them ;)

It was a pretty good joke.

That reminded me of "LoseThos". It would have been an interesting coincidence if multiple people were asked by God to create a 64-bit OS, but it is the same guy; he renamed it into TempleOS.

It's the same guy!

I am at the same time in awe at the technical accomplishment and cringing at the religious twist. I've never seen the two concerns merged quite so tightly.

Doesn't running TempleOS in VMWare completely ruin the aesthetic??? Pretty surprised by that part.

When I heard about LoseThos I thought it was really bad ass. Like people who build their own house from scratch and live in it. The idea was to strip it down and get close to the metal.

But if you're running it in VMWare, you basically have an entire OS underneath, a bunch of opaque code... doesn't fit IMO :/

It's very difficult to write an OS that runs on the bare metal of an arbitrary computer. One advantage of virtualization is that hardware differences are normalized, and you only have to write a few drivers.

If I was to write an OS for fun I would probably target something with fixed hardware like the RPi.

Even with the RPi you're going to need USB support if you want simple things like keyboard input.

It's not terribly hard -- no harder than a platform like Raspberry Pi -- if you're fine with sticking to a standardized subset of PC hardware.

That typically means using an older, slower standard for accessing the hardware. For example, you might use VESA BIOS Extensions for graphical video output, and be limited to a 1280x1024 framebuffer, rather than write device-specific drivers which would give you access to all its GPU acceleration capabilities.

You could run it in an ESX bare-metal hypervisor, giving you most of the benefits of virtualization without a whole OS running "underneath".

The host "OS underneath" isn't visible to the VMware guest OS unless it uses special interfaces - which I'm fairly sure TempleOS doesn't. So TempleOS still has to do the hard work of dealing with the "hardware" that VMware is emulating.

I've run TempleOS on bare metal before. Getting it installed can be a bit fiddly (e.g. finding the right io ports for the CD-ROM), but it worked for me.

I'm going to assume Terry either found some moments of calm or changed up his meds.

Either way, nice so see him in the public eye without all the vitriol.

same here- once or twice a year, for probably the last 12 or 15 years, I'll google him to see what he's up to (it'll always be LoseThos to me :) ). About 6 months ago the stuff I came across got me worried for his well being- having had a family member suffer terribly from schizophrenia it's hard for me to see that kind of behavior as just wacky, and I hate to see anybody suffering in that way. I think a lot of people who jump on him about the religion are probably unaware of the mental illness.

Could not help but wonder about this, if history was re-ordered appropriately, operating systems hacking could have been a major organized religion associated with all the heft, influence, funds and muscle that they are associated with.

Many researchers believe that the religious episodes that prophets talk about, their visions and hearings that led them to their religion, may have been psychotic episodes. I find this hypothesis extremely believable.

I think for something to become an organized religion more deliberate and political measures are required. Also needed: powerful people with axes to grind, but the roots of theistic organized religion of our times could surely have been aural/visual hallucinations and schizophrenia of their prophets who could have been just as smart, interesting, and at the same time human as Terry Davis.

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/02/i_thought_i_was_a_prophet/

Terry Davis is awesome.

He really uses internet explorer?

ye the lord commanded it

So? What difference dose it make?

Yeah, I did. Now, I use Linux. Normally stuff like this launched me into an existential crisis. "Oh, God, the stress! Why God!? My world has a MAJOR thing to worry about -- misleading people maybe or something like that."

I'm not quite as much a coward. I think I had good reason. Cowardess is not a virtue. God loved King David.

Damn, I look awful. Oh well. I've become a freak hermit-- don't know how to smile, anymore.

You look like the rest of us Terry :D

Welcome :)

You poor people don't know God.

As much as I feel sorry for this guy, can't look past his racist rants :(

please do, they are certainly caused by his schizophrenia. In much the same way a Tourettes sufferer cannot control their compulsion to say inappropriate things.

But you can edit your post before or even a while after sending it.

It is much harder to edit the thinking that led you to write it in the first place.

While I understand the thought process behind giving the mentally ill a free pass when it comes to saying things which seem inappropriate to the rest of us, I also understand that those of us that suffer from those illnesses also have valid political and social preferences and opinions.

I've met plenty of mentally ill individuals who were as kind as can be. I've also met individuals that are filled with a special kind of hatred.

The question I have : Are there any documents or papers that Terry has written that go against his insensitive and racist ramblings, and explain that his inappropriate use of certain terms that the rest of us would never touch? If there is no formal explanation of language, how can everyone be so sure that the hatred is indeed generated by an illness rather than a hateful person with an uncommon opinion?

I know, a formal letter from someone with a mental illness seems like a stretch to ask for, but Terry has been extraordinary in every other facet. He's a true hacker, OS author, and the creator of a language. He commonly posts opinions he has on new articles on his own site, and the posts are relatively lucid, as are technical aspects of his work. I don't think that an explanation of his language use is unworkable, however I do not have any firm grasp on how he interprets reality and can only judge the difficulty on that job in comparison to the difficulty of the work he has already shown he's quite capable at (his OS, for example).

I know everyone is going to jump down my throat about all of this, so let me summarize at least what i'm try to get across for anyone that might misunderstand.

1) schizophrenia and racism can exist individually. (however, Schizophrenia can also form racisms.)

2) an individual looking in really has no grasp on what is or is not formed by the condition rather than the individual

3) It's wrong to assume someone isn't something they practice, simply due to a personal flaw. (Example: I'd hate to be the world's biggest racist stuck in the body of a Tourette's patient, everyone would probably blame my rants which I worked so hard on on the disease)

(to those of you in this thread that mention Terry doesn't use racial language to describe race : please read more of his work, you're incorrect. Example : http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Accts/TS/Wb2/Rants/TAD/2014/02/Ra... )

I'm going to throw out your entire argument here and simply point out that Terry doesn't get a "free pass". Every account he's created here, and there have been a few, get insta-banned. Only people with showdead turned on can even see what he writes.

The original comment was about not being able to "see past" Terry's comments. Somehow this has devolved into an attempted debate about antisocial behavior. But, you have to take people as entire individuals, the good with the bad. Orson Scott Card is a talented writer, and a bigot. Tom Cruise is an amazing actor, and a prominent member of a worldwide cult. Terry is a respectable programmer, and mentally ill.

We all have different boundaries. If you really find it impossible to consider Terry's work because of his behavior, then so be it; it's not up to me to convince you otherwise. But, a lot of other people are quite capable of discussing his work, respectfully, without getting hung up on his illness.

He's clearly conscious when he's making these remarks. See my comment below.

If you pay attention, his use of the word "nigger" is not directed at black people. The word may offend people but his way of relating to the world is different, you aren't understanding much if you assume he means things the same as you do.

The link to BlackPast.org on his site[0] disagrees.

Usually if he's trying to be insensitive to a different race, he just hyphenates that race along with the word you mentioned.

Although, I do agree that most of his use of that word can probably be changed to some other generally negative word and make just as much sense. He usually isn't implying a race.

[0] http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Accts/TS/Wb2/Rants/TAD/2014/02/Ra...

In case someone didn't bother to read the whole thing: "India-niggers are retards -- set them to work and you'll soon have Linux."

And if you google "India-niggers":

http://bbs.progrider.org/prog/read/1378346945

https://twitter.com/TempleOS/status/337550571248689152

http://archive.rebeccablacktech.com/g/?task=search2&search_u...

From youtube (https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=EtZv9aC2dKw&threaded=...): "India niggers are dumb as a stump and somehow still arrogant. "nomad" means you can move from any computer to any other computer. Computers were probably clusterfucked by the time the india niggers arrived and they're all confused. Everybody knoew what a directory was--you just copied files around."

india-niggers moved into programming like a neighborhood gets less white. There were no india niggers in the 1980's--they were all in calcutta. There's a whole generation of C64 and Apple II programmers who existed before india-niggers. the India niggers are all clueless

Terry Davis has a mental illness, this isn't the proper forum to call attention to it.

We can draw attention to interesting bits, like this page: http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Accts/TS/Wb2/TempleOS.html

Reading the usesthis page, I was intrigued by the fact the author uses Windows. Actually he tweeted about switching to Linux a few days ago: https://twitter.com/TempleOS/status/461423615582298112

I find also interesting that someone writing an OS is prevented running it natively by Secure-Boot.

He said the problem was "legacy PS/2 keyboard/mouse emulation", that's why he can't run TempleOS natively. The Secure-Boot reference is more related to dual-booting I think.

He's reiterated that in a (dead) comment on this post:

> I'm not quite as much a coward. I think I had good reason. Cowardess is not a virtue. God loved King David.

>Damn, I look awful. Oh well. I've become a freak hermit-- don't know how to smile, anymore.

Sure it is. He gets respect and tolerance from the people who know his situation. He's been dealt a bad hand, but he's one of us!

Yet you draw further attention to it.

But frankly, consider that he is posting all over the place anyway, trying to hide his issues away accomplishes nothing. Drawing attention to the fact that his often extremely offensive comments are due to mental illness rather than malice is not a bad thing in that context.

He's accomplished a lot of things that most people never will, despite his illness. He's one of the reasons I have showdead on.

I am glad I got to check out his page, and apart from the technical aspect, some quotes realy made me ponder, e.g:

Imagine a billionare. Everyone around him can't forget his money for even a moment. The truth is, most people are after God's "money" -- they fear for their salvation. Here's a test -- would you pray to and praise God even if there were no salvation? Love God and don't be a "user". Asking for stuff is annoying. Luke,11:5

http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Adam/God/HSNotes.html

I agree. While I am no longer Christian, I really liked his perspective that one should love God as an inherently good act, rather than out of fear or a desire to get Good Things Later.

It wasn't even mentioned until you brought it up.

So why are you?

One of my best friends has a mental illness. Society should get over it, and learn to deal with it.

I've never met or spoken to Terry Davis, but I think he's amazing (and I'm an atheist). His code is incredibly inventive, and I don't know of many people who have achieved what he has single-handedly.

Yes, Terry Davis has a mental illness.

Yes, Terry Davis is very likely a true genius.

These can both be true.

Terry, if you're reading this, my best wishes.

There's nothing wrong or shameful about mental illness. It exists. It's wrong to pretend that it doesn't or to ignore/hide it.

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