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Comment by hypron | Hacker News Reader

>In a related study of approximately 350 heterosexual individuals, we collected these same measures in networks of opposite-sex friends, acquaintances and partners. Among these well-acquainted individuals, consensus on measures of mate value was nearly zero. These are the people who know what authors you like, what you wore for Halloween six years ago and what obscure movie you will quote the next time you all get together. But they cannot agree on your mate value. Over the years, it has evaporated before their eyes.

I'm curious if this is the cause of the so-called "friend zone". A guy and a girl meet and become friends. After getting to know each other, the guy still thinks the girl has mate value, whereas the girl doesn't think the guy has mate value.

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I always hated the term "friend zone" because I think it's really as simple as you have just described. One person likes the other and the feeling isn't reciprocated. It's unrequited love. The friendship part makes things more painful and complicated but I don't think it has any bearing on why the person isn't attracted to the other.

Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor.

So now it is the fault of the pursuer for not working hard enough or "screwing up" an initial encounter protocol and being pushed into the "friend zone". Which is like a terribly deep gravity well that the will require a tremendous amount of energy to get out of.

It's pretty fucking rash to say that an attempt to impress someone is equivalent to objectification and sexism. It might reflect an inability to accept rejection, but I would hardly compare it to subhuman treatment (which is what objectification means -- treating someone without regard to their humanity).

I sincerely hope this trend of reducing every male behaviour to sexism strangles itself.

I think you can find objectification at the root of anger and bitterness associated with the friend zone (which is often how I see the term used; the girl "puts you" in the friend zone after all). "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee" does show a disregard for the humanity of the admired; women are allowed to have opinions, and hitting all of the imaginary checkboxes on what make you perfect for her doesn't entitle you to anything.

> "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee"

Unfortunately this attitude is lionized in Hollywood and popular culture ... with the implication that if you dream hard enough, he/she will see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuNIsY6JdUw

Rejection sucks some times, and bitterness and blame is one way to cope with it (and hopefully it is only temporary, and you don't take it out on anyone). Bitterness often manifests itself as unfairly blaming the other party. These are emotions, the words and opinions that they evoke don't necessarily have any rational basis.

Yeah, you're probably right. You could probably still argue that emotions can be subconsciously driven by an ingrained sexist worldview, but I think anyone who is rejected goes through bitterness and that's just natural.

Id written something long and rambly, but to kind of summarize my thoughts, "friendzone" is used in lot of different ways and means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

I have never actually seen complaints about the friendzone as a manifestation of entitlement, only lament.

I do not think "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee" shows a disregard for the humanity of the admired.

It is essentially the same as "my essay was so good why cant teacher seeeee" or "my art is so good why cant people seee" or "I run so fast why coach can not pick me" or any other situation where person have a hard time to accept rejection.

You do not make any service to women by seeing sexism every time a guy does not reacts perfectly.

I believe most people would agree with that view; the negative side of the "friend zone" is from the "I've put so much effort into this girl, why isn't she having sex with me" opinions you sometimes seem espoused on reddit and other similar haunts of the angsty teenage male.

I don't understand. How can "objects" be persuaded?

That is a metaphor to represent how one side is assumed to be passive that needs to be persuaded by harder work. Being pushed into the friendzone is often portrayed as a failure of the suitor to follow a prescribed protocol (being more insistent at fist, etc.).

I also find it fascinating that if one tries to explicitly express interest beyond being just friends, the 'friend zone' is forever altered as an ulterior motive will likely be questioned when engaging in future events thereafter.

This places the person who would like to be more than just friends in an uneasy predicament: either keep their mouth shut and preserve their 'friend' title, or profess their true feelings and gamble away having that person in their life anymore.

"Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor."

I feel it's the exact opposite. The entire idea behind being friendzoned is that you can't get out of it and should cut your losses. It isn't considered heroic to "fight" the friendzone... it is considered stupid.

The problem with the friendzone is the power imbalance. If there is no imbalance it is just simple friendship. A few women love the power and take advantage of it just like a few bosses love the power and take advantage of their employees.

If the cool "jock" takes advantage of the nerd who desperately wants to be cool we (society) think the jock is being an asshole. But if an attractive woman does the same thing it is suddenly the nerd who is at fault.

I have always seen the friend zone as a term to describe the dynamic where the girl is using the bait of relationship and sex to make the guy do things for her.

I guess other people see it as the guy being too clingy and not getting the message.

These are two entirely different concepts which both carry the term "friend zone".

Here's a third one. When I first learned about the term over a decade ago, it just meant that a girl can see you as friend material or romantic material, but once she sees you as friend material your romantic chances are pretty much gone forever.

"Friend zone" means that she is not attracted into the guy. She might respect him, like him, find him pleasant and still not see him as potential romantic partner. She can even find him attractively looking and still not find him as a potential boyfriend. Some boys tend to think it is going to change if they do enough services or help her a lot of whatever. It does not work that way. If you need to work hard on her, then I do not see relationship looking out of it.

It does not mean friendship can not turn into relationship. It can and all my relationships were like that. I would not date somebody I did not knew. I have also seen couples that originally disliked each other and became attracted only after they knew each other. However, it never went to one-sided "he follows her and help her too much" friend zone.

"A woman may very well form a friendship with a man, but for this to endure, it must be assisted by a little physical antipathy." - Nietzsche

I believe the woman knows that he is into her. And she enjoys the attentions without having to commit. It is a very comfortable position. It remains an asymmetric relationship as long as the friend zoned allows it.

I rather like this interpretation of the male-female friendships and why this 'friend-zone' thing exists. I'm not sure how much I agree with it currently, but it's food for thought:

http://deepfriedcalamari.tumblr.com/post/10839417292/homosoc...

In particular:

> Homosocial bonding is different between men and women, and this causes a lot of confusion and why it’s assumed that men and women cannot be friends.

> Men see their friendships as camaraderie, hanging out, occasional complaining, and chilling. There’s plenty of support mechanisms in place, but they’re not intimate, per se.

> Women on the other hand are intimate, affectionate, they talk more about how they feel than how things happened. The support mechanisms are explicitly intimate.

> So, men who are not used to intimate physical contact and discourse have to translate a person of the opposite sex being physically and emotionally intimate beyond the boundaries of relationships he is used to.

Again, I don't want to generalize the linked text, but it was very accurate when I reflected on my own 'friend zone' experiences, and those my male friends have had.

What's wrong with the friend zone? See: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2615

(This is a snarky way of saying that friendship is its own reward.)

It's generally a good idea for all parties in a relationship to have the same expectations.

Nothing inherently wrong with it, in the same way there's nothing inherently wrong with a relationship based entirely on casual sex with no attendant intimacy or commitment.

In both cases, though, in practice, you're likely to find one side is getting exactly what they want out of the relationship, where the other is holding out for more.

Staying friends with someone who you're romantically attracted to is a recipe for resentment (at least for many people). It might just be better to cut contact all together. Of course, then you might be in the uncomfortable position that people assume that you were only interested in her because you wanted to have sex with her and, 'failing' at that, you didn't want to have anything to do with her.

Ironically, it is when men aren't one-dimensional (which I think is must of us) that leads to these kind of situations, which leads to people thinking that they were just out after sex to begin with.

The concept of "friend zone" might resonate with more people if it wasn't always a straight man remonstrating about a woman who won't reciprocate his politeness with sex. This article is more about people who take time to fall in love, well, taking time to fall in love, regardless of their gender.

Not everything has to be symmetrical. The phenomenon as people observe it primarily occurs with a young man doting on a woman.

Mentioning the age of the participants: it seems to be a set of unhelpful behaviours that the guys eventually grow out of.

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