From: Don Hopkins
I'm interested in knowing more about the evolution of MVC and Morphic, and any other approaches that people have taken to user interface programming that you think are important. I've heard about Morphic, but I haven't been able to find out too much about it on the web. My understanding is that it was originally written for Self, then ported to Smalltalk. Is it still in development, or has it morphed into something else? I don't know much about how it works or the ideas behind its design. What makes it unique and interesting?
There was a discussion on Reddit about "Is MVC the best pattern for web development", which is something I have strong opinions about and like to discuss!
I've drawn a lot of my opinions from this fascinating discussion on C2: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatsaControllerAnyway
Here's the reddit discussion, which is about how MVC applies to web development: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/lovjq/is_mvc_th...
The article: http://feedmyconstraint.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/is-mvc-the-...
I posted a comment whose TLDR summary was "Fuck MVC!" -- It has a totally different meaning for web server programming, and in the 32 years since the term was coined, there have been better ideas.
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/lovjq/is_mvc_th...
There are two different meanings that MVC has these days: user interface MVC, and web server MVC. User interface MVC has its own problems, the least of which is being 32 years old. And nobody can agree on what a controller is, anyway, except that it's the dumping ground for all the brittle junk and dependencies that none of the other well defined classes wanted.
From: Alan Kay
Things seem to hang on in computing just because they work a little bit.
MVC was originally done at PARC almost 40 years ago. The good part was philosophical -- the idea to adapt the notion of "cameras" and "worlds" in the original 3D graphics stuff I participated in at Utah 45 years ago. The bad part of MVC was how we implemented it -- much too much machinery, etc.
We (my various groups since then, including Viewpoints Research) have not thought about MVC since, but have used and devised various viewing methods over the last 20+ years. I like to do views as "watchers" which do not affect what they are viewing. There are lots of ways to do this. Similarly, I like to also use "watchers" (context sensitive to the views) to catch needed inputs. We have never done a really satisfactory automatic inverter for dealing with the loss of "dimensions" that happen when a view is made (but we have done some experimental ones).
One important criterion is for end-users of all kinds to be able to easily make their own views in a very powerful ad hoc way via construction. We have done a number of adaptations and generalizations of how this can be done in Hypercard -- and this seems to work well (enough).
Since we always roll our own languages and development systems, we don't care about problems that other systems might have. For example, we have very little knowledge about C#, etc.
We do try to learn from the few good systems that are out there.