Wehrmacht Veterans Created a Secret Army in West Germany | Hacker News Reader

Wehrmacht Veterans Created a Secret Army in West Germany

spiegel.de

53 pointsedmccard17 comments

The pre WWII, much of what was to become the German military of WWII was secret and unofficial, so there is a precedent here that makes it understandable how something so extraordinary could come about. It's also an alarming precedent, given that precedent's association with the Nazi regime. However, it's also quite understandable in the context of the atrocities experienced by the Germans as the Soviet military rolled in from the east. Those in turn are also understandable, given what the Germans did on their way in to the USSR.

War only produces more war.

"atrocities experienced by the Germans as the Soviet military rolled in from the east" - don't invade places then. 'Atrocity' is when someone exterminates people just to clear the land. The word you were looking for is 'retribution'.

Exterminating people to clear the land is called "genocide" (and it's one of the most severe forms of genocide), which is only one of many different kinds of atrocities. Atrocities can and often do occur in regular warfare, and they definitely happened on both sides on the eastern front in WW2.

There were plenty more secret armies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

Well, Gladio was an "official" secret army started by the NATO, but in this case, a bunch of veterans got together to form a secret army with no supervision at all. Only in 1951, the German BND resp. its predecessor organization, Organisation Gehlen, is instructed to observe and control them. Organisation Gehlen started as a German CIA unit with former Wehrmacht and SS officers. It is a prime example how the old Nazi elites were essentially still in control after World War 2, and how they could essentially do as they place.

"old Nazi elites?" It's my understanding that the Nazis were "young turks" in their day who usurped power from an older military class elite. Of course, internal politics in the face of being on the losing side of a war and occupation by foreign powers probably resulted in the subsumption/unification of those groups into one after WWII.

I don't feel easy with the vilification of patriotism. Such feelings grow from the natural instincts of people who feel affinity with those from their own culture and who wish to defend their homes. Any harm done happens when sociopaths exploit such feelings for their own cruel ambitions.

(Yes, some xenophobia is also involved, which must be counteracted through education.)

"Old Nazi elites" as in the elites of the old Nazi Germany system that managed to stay on top of the new system, keep up their networks, and stay in relatively powerful positions.

Hitler was 44 at the time he took power, so not a youngster. Many original nazis fought in WWI, so they easily could count as old old Nazi elite by the time WWII ended.

"Young Turk" is figurative. He also wasn't a Turk.

Nazi apologia on HN? Seriouly?

Is this "Nazi apologia?" Seriously?

Or are people knee-jerking when they see text including "Nazi" that isn't one dimensionally negative throughout. Please point out the text that is apologizing for their behavior. I am only dispassionately discussing the details of of who they were and their social context.

It's not the comic book evil of the Nazis that is the most striking thing about that whole sad chapter of human history. It's the banality. We're much better served by thinking of them as people and seeing the details of how they got the world into horrific war than to merely caricature them. We're much better served by taking history's lessons to heart and acknowledging our own horrible potential.

if one looks at the "people uprising" in eastern Ukraine, the one would wonder how many of these people were "sleepers" contacted and organized by Russian special services well before the uprising.

Note: i'm a Russian (and like many Russians do have genuine Ukranian blood, not just simply something like relatives living there) and, unfortunately, have no choice but to support the "people uprising" as these "green little men" is the only hope of Russian speaking population in eastern Ukraine against "trains of friendship" of Ukranian nationalists descending on their towns and villages.

>have no choice but to support the "people uprising" as these "green little men" is the only hope of Russian speaking population in eastern Ukraine against "trains of friendship" of Ukranian nationalists descending on their towns and villages.

Could you please elaborate why you have "no choice" ? How exactly did Ukrainians threatened the Russian people in Ukraine so you agree on war ? Wasn't a Yanukovych a pro-russian president ? Why not simply wait for an election as a democratic country ? Why support those who want war and war of the nations ?

This is not a war of two countries it's a war of two nations that share the same roots. If the war is the last option Russia had, they are indeed very disparate. I don't think they are in need of support, they're more in need of mourning.

Violence is the weapon of the weak said the great Gandhi. Even when violence appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Gandhi How many died already ? In name of what ? Stupidsapiens. If we could all once agree to stop the violence, stop talking politics and more about how we can evolve and improve our lives and live in peace, that would be a tremendous achievement..

>Could you please elaborate why you have "no choice" ? How exactly did Ukrainians threatened the Russian people in Ukraine so you agree on war ?

why war? I just support the right of people to take power in their hands and form their own state when their basic rights are violated or not protected by the current state they reside in. United States two centuries ago, colonial Africa 60-40 years ago, Kosovo, South Sudan,... Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine,... . If it were my decision Chechnya would be separate today.

>Wasn't a Yanukovych a pro-russian president ? Why not simply wait for an election as a democratic country ?

exactly. Yanukovich (while being complete trash, not that other politicians there are any better though) was democratically elected. What would be the point of new elections?

The original "people uprising" happened in the capital. And it's very obvious who contacted those other, nazi, sleepers:

https://www.google.com/search?q=us+5+billion+ukraine

I got an unfortunate Google 'accordion' ad at the bottom of that article, offering me among other things "Research your ancestry", "German WW2 original items" and, er, "Walk-in showers"

Wow, I don't know if there's a way to teach the ad algorithm taste, but maybe it should detect whether the context is positive before it associates two things for advertisement purposes? Walk-in showers....

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