A comparison between funding education in Nordic countries and the USA | Hacker News Reader

A comparison between funding education in Nordic countries and the USA

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26 pointsColinWright18 comments

As a professional liberal, it pains me to have to do this. But since nobody else is, here's the conservative take. Because, seriously, there are real debates about this stuff.

Imaginary Cato institute position: "Leaving higher education to the free market is always more efficient. People naturally make the most rational economic decisions in their journey to achieve maximum happiness. Government interventions, such as confiscating money through the threat of violence (this is what they call taxes) to support free higher education will always distort this market, leading to inefficiencies on the path to maximum happiness. Governments are incompetent and inefficient because of the lack of market incentives, while markets are ruthlessly efficient."

Imaginary Mitt Romney position: The financial support I have received from for-profit colleges is immense. Seriously, those places basically print money. We need more of them.

Real Heritage Foundation positions:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/01/ways-to-mak...

http://blog.heritage.org/2010/08/10/the-assault-on-for-profi...

I really do agree with the above comic strip. But liberals like me don't operate on a vacuum. Donate some money to us, you rich silicon valley types.

The "liberal-free market" education isn't

Distortion n.1: offering student loans. "Ah but the unprivileged don't have the resources to go to school!" Then give scholarships. Or cap limit student loans (to 10k for example), yes, to a lower number.

Distortion n.2: fscking textbooks. Really, if I'm paying an absurd amount for tuition, everything needed should be included. Nowhere else in the world people are made to buy scantrons for example.

Distortion n.3: people shooting for "the best schools". I understand the connections a good school offers, etc but 1) courses can only go so far (even STEM courses), 2) after around 5 years of professional experience your education becomes less and less important

The Nordic countries have a combined population of 26 million, less than a tenth of the US 318 million.

So, assuming similar abilities and a naive random model, out of every research area's top labs, the US should have twelve fold representation compared to the Nordic countries.

There is some concentration in some niches in these countries, as there is probably elsewhere as well.

I think in general the US society and atmosphere is much more stratified than here. Also because of the larger "pool", the "peak" is bigger. The top research labs or top companies get the top people and give almost unlimited resources. But that is relevant to only a small percentage anyway.

Discussion about limiting freedoms and state guidance is quite hard.

In my view, basically anything the state (or city or your neighbordhood council or whatever) does, limits your freedom in some way. Hence we can start from the fact that our freedoms are already limited.

As a retort to the conservative theory, the biggest flaw I see in that argument is

> "People naturally make the most rational economic decisions in their journey to achieve maximum happiness"

Current economic thinking of the financially illiterate maximizes happiness on local, and not absolute maxima. You can see this in the everyday ethos of American culture: we want what satisfies us now; we want what is quick and easy. This comes at the cost of it being the best for us, which is oftentimes irrational.

An example of this would be buying fast food over healthy (natural) food. Rationally it's better to buy fast food as it is cheaper than healthy food (on a pure cost basis) and it sates local maxima for immediate happiness in the taste of food. However, it is not a rational economic choice in the long run, as unhealthy food choices correlate with increase disease, and thus higher long-term medical costs, and that sickness leads to an overall (absolute) maxima being lower.

Oh can we _not_ discuss fairly complex issues in comic strip form? I've yet to see one that doesn't automatically qualify for r/bad{history,economics,philosophy,etc} (I'm looking at you, The Oatmeal)

While HN is probably not the place for this discussion but the thesis could not be clearer. You're merely objecting to the color scheme. Average educational standards in the US are pitiful but I think it's too late. The Chinese understand this very well.

Well when the colour scheme dictates primary colours, and the painting is of something requiring the full spectrum, then it's valid to complain about the colour scheme. Or to be less subtle, when was the last time you saw a comic strip express a nuanced view?

It's nearly impossible to be nuanced in the comic strip medium, but that does not mean it's useless for serious commentary.

The one in question is right this moment spurring serious discussion (here on HN, in this thread,) that's no doubt its intended purpose. Which in your analogy makes it not a dictated scheme, but a scetched canvas; ready to be painted.

By all means, let's have 45 submissions about Apple bidding for Beats, and let's have "The future of Unreal Tournament begins today" at number 1 for 12 hours, getting over 700 up-votes and nearly 140 comments, but let's not discuss the present situation with regards education.

I get it now - HN is not a place to have an intelligent discussion about things that affect the future, it really is a place for people to discuss technology that really matters.

Oh, I'm fine with the discussion. But please, there is better starting point than this shit. "your rich own most of your politicians", "a nation hurtling towards decline" are hardly things that can be stated without justification, and I doubt even Fox News would put them in the "fair and balanced" column. Hell, where was the panel comparing the quality of American and Scandinavian universities: of the top 10 universities, as ranked by QS, 6 are American, a not insignificant fact. And I wouldn't mention it had the author not picked the region out for special treatment, but the top university in a Scandinavian country is ranked 45 on that list.

The comic also assumes that the fact that schools in the US are not free automatically leads to the absence of "an educated population [which] equals a strong, steady state ready for the future", which I don't think can be taken to be true without evidence. Ha, most of the things he states can't be taken to be true without evidence, which is so conveniently missing. Regardless, this comic is shit.

So sure, we can talk about this stuff. But can we have a source not so blatantly targeted at the lowest denominator of the left next time, please?

I seriously wish you'd given a useful, content-full and considered response like this in the first instance, rather than just dismissing it. Then there could have been a discussion that dissected the source, rather than ignoring it. We could then have had a resource at which to point people who nod sagely and re-tweet thoughtlessly.

Too late, now.

Colin: here's a better source for education policy discussions, informed by international practice.

http://educationnext.org/

I wish that more of the articles from this source, which are nuanced and based on sound research, would reach the front page of HN and gain thoughtful discussion. You can help make that happen.

Free education is not only in the Nordic countries and it is also in a lot of countries in Europe.

Also a few countries also offer education for really small fee.

But I definitely agree with this comic strip.

It's hard to compare Nordic countries to U.S. because they are small. Take Notch. If he sells a billion bucks worth of minecraft to American schoolchildren and pays taxes on that in Sweden - that can be a substantial boost to Swedish coffers. Americans can't very well raise enough revenue by exporting to Sweden.

Number should be used in both ways. If the US have a population k times that of Sweden, there are k Notch-likes with possibly k times the revenue of Minecraft, hence k times the potential taxes. The revenue might be considered equal as both Sweden and the US export to the rest of the world (another fallacy of your argument was that Sweden exports to the US and the US only exports to Sweden).

Yes, if Notch-i-ness scales linearly with population, then I agree with you. So that's the crucial assumption here.

I'm reminded of this purported exchange:

A Scandinavian economist once stated to Milton Friedman: "In Scandinavia we have no poverty." Milton Friedman replied, "That's interesting, because in America among Scandinavians, we have no poverty either." Indeed, the poverty rate for Americans with Swedish ancestry is only 6.7%, half the U.S average. Economists Geranda Notten and Chris de Neubourg have calculated the poverty rate in Sweden using the American poverty threshold, finding it to be an identical 6.7%.

http://www.newgeography.com/content/001543-is-sweden-a-false...

Anyway, I look forward to this falling off the front page ASAP.

Maybe because they were all well educated?

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