The Domain Market is a Mess | Hacker News Reader

The Domain Market is a Mess

spencerfry.com

52 pointsspencerfry48 comments

" (2) the domain transfer market is terrible and ripe for someone smart to wreak havoc on the existing players."

The only thing that could wreak havoc on the existing system (which has multiple players) is hiring a consultant who is knowledgeable about this in order to help you navigate the obvious bullshit that anyone will encounter when purchasing a domain name.

For people who deal with this type of thing all that the OP has described is often anticipated and is worked around.

For example I had a case recently with buying a name (for someone) where the seller told me that "the transfer has to be done with godaddy that's the only way that escrow.com works". For someone who doesn't know "how it works" unraveling (and getting the seller to change their opinion) would take many phone calls to get to the point of being able to simply get the auth code to transfer the name to the registrar of their choice (which is not godaddy).

There is not a technology answer to this issue. It's a knowledge and people answer.

That said if anyone thinks they have a way to disrupt this I would be glad to hear about it and tell them what I thought about it (based on my 18 years approx in this business.)

>That said if anyone thinks they have a way to disrupt this I would be glad to hear about it and tell them what I thought about it (based on my 18 years approx in this business.)

I see the problem as follows: Buyer/OP found and purchased the domain from a broker/escrow agent/middle-man, as a result the buyer was subjected to the additional time required for seller to transfer the domain to broker/escrow agent/middle-man.

Solution: Once the domain was transferred to broker/escrow agent/middle-man it appears the buyer had the domain a few hours later. Therefore, the broker/escrow agent/middle-man could require all domain listings be transferred to their account upfront. In theory after the payment, the buyer will have the domain within hours with no need to rely on the seller. Perhaps the only downside is the seller agreeing to an exclusive listing, but there is nothing prohibiting a system where the seller could cancel the sale and request the domain be return prior to any closing.

"for seller to transfer the domain to broker/escrow agent/middle-man"

Well to start domains aren't transferred to these parties these parties merely facilitate the transfer by way of others that have a stake for one reason or another.

Perhaps it's best to state how this typically works.

a) A person owns a domain b) A person may be acting as a broker or middleman for some reason on that domain. c) There is the current "old" registrar of the domain. d) There is the new registrar that the new owner wants to transfer to. e) c&d may or may not be the same company. f) There may be an escrow service, say escrow.com in between. Purpose to make sure the right thing happens and the ownership is actually transferred.

If Dave is the buyer, Joe is the broker, and Jane is the seller, Godaddy is the existing registrar and namecheap is the registrar that Dave (buyer) wants to use, here is what should happen.

1) Joe gets the auth code from Jane or Dave gets the auth code from Jane etc. 2) Joe or Dave gives the auth code to Namecheap. 3) Namecheap gets the name transferred over from Godaddy (I'll skip the exact details on that part for simplicity). Much happens here obviously to make this actually happen. 4) Both buyer and seller agree the transaction is "ok" and the escrow company releases the money to the seller.

The problem with this solution is that many people listing domains on sites like Sedo will want to continue to run a website (or a "parked" landing page with spammy ads) until the site has sold. I guess ownership could be transferred with the understanding that the broker will keep the name servers intact until a sale, but this sounds kind of messy and difficult to manage.

Not to be mean but not understanding how domain name transfers work doesn't make things "a mess". This is "a mess" because you dealt with a big slow company as a middle-man. If you had contacted the seller directly you could have moved the domain between two GoDaddy accounts in a matter of minutes or off to another registrar within a few hours using the standard ICANN transfer method.

I completely understand how domain name transfers work. I've done plenty of them. Just because you're a big slow company doesn't mean that we as consumers should just shrug it off as "business as usual". The domain market is a mess specifically for the reason that nobody has built a better solution in ten years. When I purchased https://www.uncover.com back in ~2004 it was the same process as it is today. That's just not right ten years later.

But you didn't have to use a middleman. That's like riding the bus and complaining it took too long to get across town and drop you at your destination.

Yes I did. Legally.

It sounds like you had a crappy experience. That is understandable. But as soon as he cooperated it did transfer quickly. It was just lazy of him to take that long to pull the trigger. Does that mean the system is actually broken? A bad user on Craigslist doesn't mean Craigslist is a mess. Nor does the passing of ten years dictate the need for change. Now obviously we may disagree about whether or not the system is in fact broken- but I really don't think it is, and if it ain't broken... I'm just saying this market is so fragmented, the protocols do work, the human element will always exist (and it's a good thing you have to approve a transfer), so what kind revolution are you looking for?

By using a middleman, he know that he won't get scammed: either he get the domain, or the money back.

Also, in his case, the price was fixed. Should he email the owner directly, the owner can ask for a different price based on who asked (i.e, if you're well known, a simple google search can be useful to see who you are and if you're likely to buy at a higher price 499 vs 4999.)

Sedo's commission when selling there is eye watering.

This industry is ripe for disruption from a company that charges less and allows sellers to push to an intermediate account rather than waiting 5 odd days for a transfer the old AUTH code way.

"By using a middleman, he know that he won't get scammed: either he get the domain, or the money back."

That is actually the point of using an escrow service such as escrow.com for domain transactions. Escrow.com in essence makes sure each party has the proper outcome.

"the owner can ask for a different price based on who asked"

Nothing prevents the owner, when dealing with a middleman, from taking advantage of the buyer even with Sedo in between.

At a certain point in the transfer process with SEDO the new owner of the domain is revealed. Nothing to prevent the seller from deciding to not sell the domain. Doesn't even matter what the legal status is. Fact is nobody is going to sue over some small amount of money. [1]

Let's say you own "slig.com" domain. You decide to sell it by way of SEDO. You list it for $2500 which you think is a good price. Then you see (later on) that Facebook is the buyer. You decide "hmm maybe I should not sell it" and you find some way to get out of the deal knowing that facebook probably isn't going to file a lawsuit to get the domain but will most likely decide to give you more money and just be done with it.

Exactly; my first thought when reading the article was an escrow service. Reducing counterparty risk is exactly what they were designed for, right?

> Nothing prevents the owner, when dealing with a middleman, from taking advantage of the buyer even with Sedo in between. > At a certain point in the transfer process with SEDO the new owner of the domain is revealed.

Thanks for clarifying that. I thought that the SEDO didn't reveal the buyer to the current owner.

>> I immediately submitted my information, thinking that I’d get the domain name pushed to my account later that day. Instead it took twenty days.

There's no way that it should taken 20 days, that's just totally unacceptable. And as someone who buys and sells lots of domains on a regular basis, I can tell you that this is not the norm, it's unusual for it to take this long.

One thing that you probably didn't check was whether or not the domain name was listed for sale at other venues. If the domain you wanted (based on a whois lookup) was at GoDaddy, then most likely it would have been listed at GoDaddy as many sellers will list their domains on several sites.

Looking to see if the domain is listed with the registrar as well is a really great tip. I didn't check to see if it was in GoDaddy's marketplace before purchasing it through Sedo. Next time I'll do that if I find myself in the same position.

The problem with this kind of stuff is that it's a middleman business, much like selling a house. You're working with sedo, thinking they have control over the domain, but all they're doing is selling it for the owner. It's up to the owner to make the actual move and sometimes an interest in a domain just brings up a reluctance to sell.

Other times I've had great, easy service with sedo and other sellers.

Last domain I sold was notify.me, which was I thought an amazing domain. Wonder what will happen with it.

snide, it doesn't have to be 'middleman' business. I mean, why not contact the domain owner directly and deal with them rather than giving money to a middleman? If Spencer had done that, then most likely he could have used an escrow service like escrow.com and the transaction would have gone much smoother.

My experience as Sedo, even as a seller, has been slow, as once I submit a message, it takes a day for Sedo to respond.

It's not always an option.

The story would have been far more interesting if the OP had shared details of what his business was, what words they tried and the domain they eventually settled on and bought. What would the downside be? the domain has already been acquired.

Regardless of the actual product, I can't help but think the $495 dollars he spent purchasing a domain name would have been better spent by picking an available domain name (..what $20) and putting the other $475 into Google Adwords , SEO, etc.

It's just a name, if your idea is really that great, just make up a verbish type name that doesn't exist and use it.

$470 isn't going to buy you much "SEO" - certainly nothing that will move the needle.

Similarly, it's nothing more than a test campaign's worth of ad groups on Adwords. It'll barely buy an 1/8th page ad on a random day of a local newspaper.

$500 also doesn't pay for a professional naming service. That can cost upwards of $10k, sometimes much more because it gets bid up by people like P&G who need new names all the time. You can always rename and buy a better domain when you become successful enough to afford it.

What's the minimum amount of money you can spend that will move the needle?

From my experience, a domain isn't everything, but it's likely the most important thing outside of your actual product and engineering talent. A name goes a long way and it's always worth paying for.

Author here. I think Fred Wilson said it best back in 2011:

"I believe that a good domain name is an important success factor in building and launching consumer web services. It's not in my top ten but it could be. It's certainly something we think about a lot when making investments and working with companies post investment."

Check out his article to read his reasoning.

http://avc.com/2011/04/finding-and-buying-a-domain-name/

P.S. The best article I've ever read on getting a domain name is the top comment of that post by "Guest".

One problem with reading a post on domains and trying to then buy one is that you are doing it one or three times perhaps but the person who is selling has done it thousands of times and in general (if they own large quantities of domains) will run circles around you.

This is an example of where a bit of knowledge can be dangerous.

Dude spent thousands of dollars in his own time (and donated friend time) spent researching and deciding on his domain. $500 pales in caparison to the effort he put in. I'm not saying either was worth it, only that the price for the domain is small compared with the overall cost.

Instead of looking up domain names on Domain Tools I would recommend something like https://instantdomainsearch.com/. It's using DNS queries so sometimes a taken domain name without any DNS records will show as available but that's a small trade-off considering the speed gain. It also enables you to do some invaluable brainstorming which is impossible using a submit-and-wait lookup.

Another tool I'm using frequently is http://www.leandomainsearch.com/ (originally a Show HN) where you put in a word and it will look up thousands of popular pre and suffix combinations in a second. The same DNS constraints applies but it's easy to click the domain name to see if it's really available.

came here to recommend this site, a few more to add:

http://www.panabee.com/ http://www.namestation.com/

I made one for peoples' names, although you could use it similarly to others mentioned: http://yourpersonaldotcom.com/

We made http://domai.nr/ to help with this process as well. Naming things is hard, and finding .coms for them is harder.

I'm amazed that this provocative title hasn't thrown up any discussion about the truly broken part of this system - the fact that people who buy and sell domains with no intention of ever using them even exist. It's a modern day tragedy of the commons - a public resource that anyone lacking a moral compass can profit from at the expense of the people who actually want to produce something valuable with it.

I always have the same feelings when I go to the central market. All those people owning houses and running low profit businesses. This is so unfair. I would be much better owning them. This system is so unfair!

I imagine this is trolling, but nonetheless: it's not so much about it being unfair, as it being horribly inefficient. It's a completely arbitrarily defined market over which we (strictly, ICANN) have total control. In your central market the only person who stands to lose out from any inefficiency is the owner of the property, who could get more money by selling it to you, if you truly could make more money from it than they could. In this market anyone can buy a new domain name, so it's not unfair, but the rules of the market have been defined such that people profit from it without providing any value. I'm not complaining about it, I'm merely suggesting that it's an opportunity to increase market efficiency - it's not a trivial problem but our current solutions to it seem very poor. A service, for example, that would hunt out truly great domain names for a particular purpose, buy them and then sell them on at a profit having helped the purchaser find them would be providing great value, but if the process is "search for your own domain name and then purchase it from whoever previously thought of it", it's a bit disappointing.

Domain speculators do "provide value" to ICANN in the form of annual registration fees, which they pay ICANN irrespective of whether any end user wants that domain [in that year]. They "provide value" to buyers in relinquishing ownership of a good they wanted more last time it went on sale; same as any other secondary market transaction. Sure, ICANN could be "more efficient" and charge premium prices on some domains, but the only thing worse than being gouged by speculators is being gouged by a monopolist.

I can't see why the existence of domain speculators prevents people from profiting from "helping purchasers find" names, if there's really a substantial value add in having imagination and the ability to use a WHOIS search.

i wonder. how much of wanting a specific domain name is vanity and how much of it is stats/market research/etc? is being more flexible/imaginative with one's domain name really that painful? do people advertise their web business on tv or radio that often? i find it hard to imagine typing in full urls everytime i visit a site..theres auto complete and theres google and there're links..

Our site is too WIP for any publicity but I can't help but plug this here... Domain namespaces should have automatic global price discovery: http://dotp2p.io

flippa.com is also a great place to get some good domains:

https://flippa.com/buy-domains

However because it is an auction site, they may not currently have listed what you are looking for. They also recently started a domain "catalog" which is not auction-style, but there aren't many listings yet:

https://flippa.com/domain-catalogs/listings

What was the domain?

Joel, one can look up the domains that he owns by searching Google with this query: site:whois.domaintools.com "site owner"

Where the "site owner" is someone's name. You can also use this same search and use someone's email address, as well. Or any of the data that shows up in whois, such as an address.

Cool little trick. Thx.

Sounds like most of the problem was trying to buy in .com. Is .com really that much of a boost over some of the other popular TLDs?

The issue mostly comes down to whether or not search engines (and other web entities) should treat TLD's as pure namespacing items or actual indicators of geography (the classic case being ".tv" - were you trying to indicate that your site was related to Tuvalu, or that it was about a sitcom?)

It's something that is still in flux, I believe it was within the last 12 months that Google officially switched over to treating ".io" as a generic TLD instead of country specific.

For reference, they have a listing here:

https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/1347922?hl=en

Mainstream public, the other TLDs are not popular at all. Especially true when you don't include the www. as part of the url.

Internet audience sure, not as big of a deal (but still a deal).

I'm sure as each year goes by and older people die out/adapt .com won't be that big of deal

yes, sedo and afternic suck - I have had transactions stalled and abandoned there, also.

The best way to buy domains is to do it directly. After negotiating a deal, I have used escrow.com many times and it works great.

DNS is a mess - it's like politicians and marketing guys designing the web.

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