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Comment by bsder | Hacker News Reader

USian viewpoint here.

This article makes me cringe. Is the author gay or a pseudonym for a girl?

The article seems to extol what most would call "girly" friendship--continuous contact, social gossip, etc. Lots of attention to little things.

Most guys I know of tend to equate true friendship along the lines of "will help you bury the body and won't ask questions." Male friendship tends to get tested around helping with big, infrequent things--death of parent/spouse, get somebody to hospital, cover for you when you did something monumentally stupid.

Men tend to forgive the "didn't hang out last week" but won't ever forgive things like "didn't show up for your dad's funeral".

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This is true.

Which is why I have plenty of female friends to do everyday gossip and chatting with and a few male friends to bury bodies with. It tends to work out pretty well.

Maybe I'm a weird guy, but I find that I really need people with whom I can chat about things that are happening but are of no real consequence. Sometimes you just need someone to tell "Dude, something mildly interesting just happened!"

It's the whole "The only things worth complaining about are things that aren't worth solving" philosophy. Guy friends tend to handle those poorly. Lady friends relish it.

Speaking of cringing, the adjective you're looking for is 'American'.

I wonder when "America" ceased to mean "the two continents North and South America" and started to mean "USA" in the heads of US citizens. There's a reason why "European" isn't synonymous to "German", and why "Asian" isn't synonymous to "Chinese".

United States of America = America United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland = Britain

He knows how it came into being. I think his question was more along the lines of "should it?"

I'd say "Britain" more commonly refers to Great Britain, not the UK (i.e. Britain == [England, Scotland, Wales, *islands]).

Speaking from a US perspective again, for me "the UK", "England", and "Britain" are all completely synonymous with each other.

> and started to mean "USA" in the heads of US citizens

You're being a little pedantic. It's usually understood to refer to US citizens by just about everyone outside the USA as well, not just US citizens themselves.

For those languages for which this is actually true, you can most likely chalk it up to US cultural influence.

I guess you are being a little bit insensitive by calling him "pedantic".

As an "American" from the South, and having friends in both Central and North, we constantly make fun of the fact that we can't call ourselves Americans the way Europeans and Asians do.

Another "interesting point" though is that the Indigenous population are still called Indians and the the real Indians are not identified as Asians.

You can call yourselves "South Americans" though, and everybody would understand.

Not all taxonomies consider "America" as one continent. In geography school we were taught of North America and South America as different continents. And if you check Wikipedia, you'll see there are several ways to divide the continents, and they cound from 5 to 7 depending on how you look at it, IIRC.

>Another "interesting point" though is that the Indigenous population are still called Indians and the the real Indians are not identified as Asians.

In my corner of Europe we don't consider the "real Indians" as Asians either. Some cultures do, but we prefer to reserve the "Asian" moniker for the far east (Malaysia, China, Indonesia, Japan, Korea etc). I don't see much cultural or historical resemblance between these and Indians.

Yea. I'm from India. And I resent the fact that any reference to 'Asian' means they are referring to the Chinese, Mongoloids or the Japanese. Hell, even most of Russia falls in Asia.

In the UK, "Asian" usually refers to India / Pakistan / Bangladesh.

There's no other word in English to say "from the US". When I'm talking with my Latino friends who don't like me using the word "American", I just say "gringo". But that obviously doesn't work well for general usage.

Yes, there's another word you're expected sometimes to use when traveling in South America: estadounidense. There's no equivalent in English, it would be USian.

> There's no other word in English to say "from the US".

Actually, there is: "US American" [1], though it's rarely used.

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/US_American

As I understand it, America = USA is not a US thing, it's an anglophone thing. For most of the history of the continent, if you were an english speaker, you were simply most likely to speak about the bit that's the USA, thus it got abbreviated. All language is littered with abbreviations that literally mean something broader, but has changed meaning for convenience. A car, for an example, technically means anything with wheels, but has changed its meaning to refer to an automobile for personal transportation.

Also, FWIW, my understanding is that the word "european" when used by americans and britons carries a mildly prerogative air of "frenchness". It certainly isn't a purely neutral geographical term.

Is it specifically anglophone? If anything, I think America=USA is a stronger association in some continental European languages. In English it's common to use "American" as an adjective, but not so common to use "America" as a noun to mean the USA, saying things like "I have a cousin in America" or "I took a vacation to America last year" (in both of these cases constructions like "the U.S." or "the States" are more common). But in Greek you'd definitely use "Αμερική" in those cases too, unless you were writing formally (in which case you'd say "Ηνωμένες Πολιτείες" or ΗΠΑ).

Same in Portuguese.

Not so much in Canada. We'll call someone from the US an American, but we don't say America; we'll say the US, instead.. as I just did.

It's been going on since long before you were born. John Adams(our second President) called the United States "America" in his inaugural address. [1]

We use "The Americas" to refer to the continents as a pair, and prepend a cardinal direction to refer to one of them individually.

Citizens of the Commonwealth of Australia call themselves Australians, despite there being other governments on the continent of Australia.

[1]: http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres15.html

Papua New Guinea, East Timor, and some Indonesian islands, if anyone else is curious exactly what else is on the same shelf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_%28continent%29

Many cultures consider "The Americas" to be one continent - America.

That's true, but the United States and most other English-speaking countries do consider them to be separate continents, and that's why we refer to them that way.

I believe "North American" would be suitable. (Sorry, Canada.)

Mexico is actually considered part of North America as well

Well... TIL! (Though, rather obvious thinking about it...) It definitely screws up my generalisation. I thought "North American" would be nice given the U.S. and Canada generally share the same language and culture. Mexico messes with that, slightly. Though, I suppose states like Florida (from my Dexter knowledge) would have similar issues given the high-proportion of Spanish speakers.

Speaking as a Brit, we do (rather ignorantly) generally refer to citizens of the U.S. as "American."

The US and Canada do not really have the same language demographics. 56% of Canada speaks English as a native language, 21% speaks French and Spanish clocks in at 1.2%; in contrast, the US has 80% English, 12.4% Spanish and 0.45% French.

Usually the abbreviation "America" refers to "United States of ...", while if you're referring to the two continents, you refer to "The Americas". And if you want to get more specific, you can refer to North America or South America.

Do Canadians self-identify as living in "America"? I would guess not. But Germans certainly self-identify as European.

They equate "America" with "USA". "Canada", "America", and "Mexico" are located in "North America". And, BTW, "Mexico" is also in "Central America".

It's a cultural/linguistic norm, not a programming problem. Don't try to reason it out as rigorous logic.

I do not. Maybe that would be different if I traveled to the US often. But despite some of our similarities I see Canada as distinctly Canada and I do not live in America (America’s Hat and Canada’s Pants jokes aside).

Here is a great video explaining the history of "America" and its usage around the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVMZC4y4zXU

tl;dw? Skip to 3:40.

"America" is short for "The United States of America". It's also the only shortened name which doesn't need to be preceded by 'the'. And it's the only single word which can be used to describe people of the US so then it's also been used to refer to the country. Originally 'American' was used to refer to people of British America, an area comprised of the eastern half of present-day US and Canada. Later the term came to refer to just the US.

I'm sensitive to this enough to specify 'US' when that's what I mean -- yet, when Europeans (well, N. Europeans in my experience) say "Americans" they're referring to US people. It's probably because US culture, politics, imperialism etc. intrude into their countries and lives a lot more than Canadians, Mexicans or South Americans do.

The article seems to extol what most would call "girly" friendship--continuous contact, social gossip, etc. Lots of attention to little things.

This happens within the article - the writer's wife essentially shames him for his "surfing friendship" not being like her friendships.

I've encountered this too, as I'm sure many men have - being criticized or blamed by family or spouses for not talking enough or not talking about "the right things" when spending time with friends. And you're left asking yourself "was I doing it wrong?" when I come home from hanging out with friends and playing video games or hacking or whatever.

The author explicitly acknowledges that the traditional "girly" friendship may not be the optimal. And implies that male friendships can be deeper than shared activities without turning into such relationships:

> At the same time, a wave of feminist sociologists and psychologists began describing female friendship, with all its confessional talk, as the optimal model.

> Many feminist thinkers now see those views as overly simplistic. And as recent news about gay marriage shows, America is growing more comfortable with homosexuality.

I don't think the article extols that particular type of friendship. I am surprised the article gives you that impression at all.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that feminist thinkers should be an authority on male friendships, since by definition feminist thinkers think from the point of women, and here we are discussing friendships between men.

I've a couple of female "friends"[1], and generally when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differences between "us" and "them", whoever "them" might be, whenever the opportunity arise. (I suppose you'd call that 'gossip'). I also find often their opinions aren't decided till they figure out everyone else's, as if a fact cannot be correct until it is agreed on by other people. And when I speak confidently about a non-conformist view, they're often reluctant to outright disagree with me until they're sure my view is non-conformist, which might be weeks later when they suddenly bring it up (I assume after having quizzed all their friends).

I've been called a "best friend" half a dozen times by other men in the past year or two, but I've only got one best friend myself, who I've known for close to a decade, and we talk most days of the week. I think one of the most important qualities in a close male friendship is to mean what I say and say what I mean, even if no one would agree with me, even if it offends and hurts feelings. I think that is the stuff male bond is made of. It's hard to feel closeness when a friend is hiding what they really think about me from me[2]. To maintain the closeness of a male friendship, it's also important I put it above any romantic relationships I develop with women, even, and especially when, the women in such relationship puts pressure on me to become closer to her than to my friends. If I was "Matt" in the article, and if the author was my best friend, and a very important one at that, I would rather divorce my wife than move, if the move would endanger the friendship I had with the author. Only this willingness to sacrifice would ensure the strength of the bond in the friendship[3].

[1] I don't consider any female as "friends" even if they think I'm theirs, because of [2].

[3] It is also my opinion that "following" my wife wherever she goes and agreeing with her every word would reduce her attraction for me somewhat. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10524035/Hap...

'Feminism' (is a bad name and) does not by definition imply thinking from the point of view of a woman.

Feminism is usually defined approximately as 'anti-sexism'. Often that involves discussing issues where women are worse off- but not really in this article!

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

I can tell we're going to have a lot of disagreements over the definition and the concept of Feminism so I'm just going to suggest maybe you could edit the wikipedia entry on Feminism and change the definition there to include the possibilities of inequalities against men.

> when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differences between "us" and "them", whoever "them" might be, whenever the opportunity arise. (I suppose you'd call that 'gossip').

It's called "emotional validation", and widely acknowledged as something that women are notoriously keen on and men are notoriously bad at providing.

http://www.womensweb.in/2012/04/validating-feelings-expressi...

Or, in a satirical manner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

Yes, it would be called that. I suppose the I'm not entirely comfortable with it all the time because when someone is doing it to me, they're just saying I'm right because I think I'm right, rather than telling them what they think. I suppose they could actually be feeling the same way as I do about the issue but that would only have happened because through the way I told the the story I managed to transfer my emotions to them. Sometimes I feel I'm talking to a mirror rather than a friend. Of course at other times it's just hearing what I want to hear and I suppose everyone would enjoy that from time to time. It's not something I want my friend to exclusively do to me all the time whenever we're communicating however.

My wife and I kid about it, but to me, emotional validation is the same as a lack of confidence. I have some unpopular beliefs, I don't need them to be validated by anyone. If I did, I would be a sheep.

"If I was "Matt" in the article, and if the author was my best friend, and a very important one at that, I would rather divorce my wife than move, if the move would endanger the friendship I had with the author".

Wow that's taking it to one extreme. What if this job was extremely rewarding financially for your wive or turned out to be what she really wanted to do for years? Would you not support her in this endeavour?

I think true, lasting male friendship should not necessarily imply frequent meetings among friends, but it should definitely entail something along the lines of "I've got your back, and I know you've got mine buddy". Also a lot of things in male friendship do not need to be explicitly communicated unlike female friendship (No need for endless text/messages saying "I love you man!").

It's very important to have friends with whom you share common interests and activities, but they are not necessarily your best friends. Your best friends are generally the ones you've known for decade(s) and regardless of where they are , will be ready to jump in a field of fire with you and come to your aid when times are tough. There's an unwritten contract among best friends; there's an unpronounced oath among men who hold each other in high esteem.

"Wow that's taking it to one extreme. What if this job was extremely rewarding financially for your wive or turned out to be what she really wanted to do for years? Would you not support her in this endeavour?"

I've assumed the best friend in question was very important and the move would endanger the friendship. Let's also assume my wife is important in my life. Yes, I would emotionally and perhaps materially support her in her endeavor, accept our differences in the paths of our lives, and separate/divorce. Though if we have kids, I imagine I would fight to keep them, probably trying to persuade her that her financially rewarding job may also be highly stressful and she might not want yet another responsibility.

>since by definition feminist thinkers think from the point of women

Hrm? Many men are feminist.

Feminism is defined as "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities." Feminism also deals with men's interests when the inequalities benefit women (child custody for example)

>"following" my wife wherever she goes and agreeing with her every word

Good god. These are join decisions that are made mutually.

Not sure if I understand what you're saying, but if I do, that's got to be offensive to at least two large groups of people.

At the end of the day, there are not just gay men, straight men and girls. Within the straight men there are subsets who equate a lot of social contact, gossip etc. with friendship, just as there are gay men or girls who don't equate this with friendship.

The "most guys I know of" thing is probably just confirmation bias based on social circles and career choices.

What exactly lead you to think the author was gay?

Do men have to be gay to be effeminate?

The adjective that should usually be used for that stereotype is 'camp'. Plenty of gay men aren't camp, and plenty of camp men aren't gay.

Yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of 'effeminate' really.

Do men have to be effeminate to identify with isolated feminine characteristics?

Do men have to be to identify?

No.

^^ This. I know I am there for my friends and I know that they are there for me. That already gives me a feeling of connectedness. I do not need to see them on a daily basis.

Good point. I can go fishing with my best friend, be at other sides of a lake and hardly talk all day. That still counts as hanging out.

"This article makes me cringe. Is the author gay or a pseudonym for a girl?"

You are officially part of the problem.

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